Posted on 03/14/2008 10:02:39 AM PDT by ChurtleDawg
You say:
“Abraham was not saved by the keeping the Ten Commandments, he didn’t have them.”
There were sinners since the serpent enticed Eve and most certainly during the time of Abraham (Gen 13:13 … men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly. ) And surely you must know what sin means.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
So we conclude that yes, as we all know, there was sin and breaking of Hashem’s 10 commandments in Sodom and Gemmorah during the time of Abraham (1997 before zero) . There was wickedness and sin also during the time of Noah which was 2349 years before zero. Because of the sin Hashem destroyed mankind except for a remnant that were left behind known as the Noah family. Hashem’s 10 commandments and his Sabbath are perpetual. That means they don’t end.
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
You obviously have missed the whole point of my post concerning the Abrahamic land covenant and the teaching of Scripture. The verse that you use, Eph 2:9-10 is perfect. Keep reading verses 11 and 12.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Don’t you understand that he’s talking about the land called the “commonwealth” of which they were aliens since 721 before zero when they were cast out for idolatry. They were under the curse of the law. Their forefathers and later the heirs became “strangers from the covenants of the Promise” which was the promise made to Abraham of the land covenant.
Thanks for pointing that out and helping to reaffirm what I said. In summary, in Ephesians, Paul is talking about the land covenant and it ordinances of curses and blessings. In James 2: 10-26, James is talking about the 10 commandments. They’re talking about 2 different things.
I have a very simple yes or no question. Can you enter the kingdom and not keep the 10 commandments? Can you murder, steal, break the Sabbath, etc? Remember James 2:10, in reference to 10 commandments, says you break one , you break all.
Please answer the question before we continue.
Blessings in your search for TRUTH.
‘Can you enter the kingdom and not keep the 10 commandments? Can you murder, steal, break the Sabbath, etc? Remember James 2:10, in reference to 10 commandments, says you break one , you break all.’
Of course I can and will, not because of what I did or do, but because of what Christ has done for me.
You obviously don’t know or don’t care about what the Bible says about not trying to obey or better still, keeping Hashems 10 commandment law. The consequences are much graver that you seem to realize.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Blessings in your search for TRUTH.
‘You obviously don’t know or don’t care about what the Bible says about not trying to obey or better still, keeping Hashems 10 commandment law.’
No, I understand that NO ONE, save Christ has ever kept the Law. Remember, trying doesn’t matter, one sin, you have failed. We know, that Elijah and Moses, are the only two humans for sure that went to heaven as they were with Christ during the Transfuguration. Was Moses sinless? no, Eligah? no, Abraham, no, Peter, no, Paul, no, Xone, no. I put myself in there as an equal among them as a sinner. I might even be better than the Apostle Paul, I haven’t killed believers, not that it matters to God. The point being even the greatest men and women of the Bible FAILED to keep the commandments. I’m sure they usually tried to, but in the end they too failed.
Since Moses and Elijah are in heaven, it must be a place for sinners. What kind of sinners? Repentant sinners who rely/ied on the perfect sacrifice of Jesus or the promise thereof.
‘trying to obey’
Of course I do, but I don’t. Same again as Paul. Same as all mankind.
There is no salvation in the Law, only death for sinners. Only death for those such as you...and me. Satan loves that you are seeking salvation in the Law, even he knows it isn’t there.
Through the gift of faith, from Jesus the author and perfecter of the same, granted by the grace of God freely given I am a member of His Kingdom and an heir to his heavenly throne. All works of mine are as ‘filthy rags’. I merit salvation through the works of the Son of God, not my own.
As this is Holy Week, your comments remind me of the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin who sought/gained the the death of the Creator of the world. And the hopelessness of Peter after he had denied his Savior. Your path has that same hopelessness. One slip, one errant thought, you are doomed. Without the forgiveness offered by Christ there is no escape from the Law. Your efforts already have been futile. The Law condemns you...and me.
‘The consequences are much graver that you seem to realize.’
On the contrary, I know the consequences of sin, violation of the Law. It is death. I see the Cross on which the Creator died and paid that penalty for once for all. I also see the empty tomb as Jesus defeated death for once for all and paid the penalty for sin for once for all. The perfect Sacrifice, the only Sacrifice for sin that Father recognizes.
‘Blessings in your search for TRUTH.’
Thanks, but I have already found Him that is the TRUTH, may you do also.
You say:
The point being even the greatest men and women of the Bible FAILED to keep the commandments. I’m sure they usually tried to, but in the end they too failed.
Of course we all sin and transgress the law. There a major difference, however, between those who try to keep the law, even though they stumble and repent. And there are others, which you give the impression that you are one of this group, that just don’t care about the 10 commandments and feel that they, as you proclaim if I remember, are no longer valid and only faith saves. This is a major fault and is not Biblical teaching. Hashem knows the heart and only he determines whether you are sincerely trying to obey his Sabbath commandment and the all the rest, or if you’re using the “only faith saves” and “we’re now under grace” doctrines as a crutch to do whatever you so please and make void the law. Perhaps I need to remind you what Paul says concerning this type of logic. By the way, when he says “under the law” he is not directly referring to the 10 commandment law. He is refering to the law of ordinances contained in curses (Torah). See Deut. 28:15, etc. and Galations 3:13.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
As these verses clearly show, I hope you don’t ignore them, the death of Yeshua (as you seem to believe when you say “On the contrary, I know the consequences of sin, violation of the Law. It is death. .. Jesus defeated death for once for all and paid the penalty for sin for once for all,” does not allow you to break his 10 commandments which is the definition of sin. Unless you prefer eternal death. If Yeshua defeated death, then why does Paul in Rom 6:15 that “God forbid” that we sin which is commandment breaking. Who is right you or Paul? Show me one verse that says I’m free to sin because Yeshua died and “paid the penalty for sin for once for all”. That is not Biblical. I’de like for you to show me the exact verse that says that. It is false doctrine and contrary to Scripture. The verse does not exist. The word penalty doesn’t even exists in the King James New Testament.
I’ve noticed for the 2nd time, you seem to totally and deliberately ignore Scriptures, that I’ve presented. Before going any farther, what does this verse, which I’m repeating, mean to you in simple terms?
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Blessings in your search for TRUTH.
"If the son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed"
‘And there are others, which you give the impression that you are one of this group, that just don’t care about the 10 commandments and feel that they, as you proclaim if I remember, are no longer valid and only faith saves. This is a major fault and is not Biblical teaching.’
I am sorry if I gave the impression that I don’t care about the Ten Commandments. I try, but recognize that I will fail. I am no longer under the curse of the Law because of my faith in Christ. Not something I earned, it was a gift.
‘Show me one verse that says I’m free to sin because Yeshua died and “paid the penalty for sin for once for all”.’
I can’t. Free to sin, nope. Going to sin yep. If you think you aren’t sinning you’re wrong.
‘Unless you prefer eternal death. If Yeshua defeated death, then why does Paul in Rom 6:15 that “God forbid” that we sin which is commandment breaking. Who is right you or Paul? ‘
Jesus hasn’t defeated death and the grave? Paul said paraphrasing “Should we sin so grace increases? God forbid.” Paul would agree with me, since I am in agreement with him.
‘Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.’
Exactly. Are you relying on your efforts to keep the Law for your salvation? Accept the gift.
‘Show me one verse that says I’m free to sin because Yeshua died and “paid the penalty for sin for once for all”. That is not Biblical.’
Free to sin? No. Show me the verse that shows you can keep the Law. Or that keepers of the Law receive salvation on their merit.
‘Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.’
It means that those who keep the Lord’s commandments are blessed, that they have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
Christ kept the Law for me, as he did for you.
‘the 10 commandments and feel that they, as you proclaim if I remember, are no longer valid.’
No.
‘only faith saves’
Faith in Christ....absolutely yes.
Not one fully human person is in heaven because he kept the Law. Why? Because only Jesus kept the Law.
You said
“I also see the empty tomb as Jesus defeated death for once for all”
Where does it say that? I want to read the verse that says he defeated death for all.
You say:
Christ kept the Law for me, as he did for you.
How can he keep the Law for me? Which verse says that? It isn’t even logical. Are you writing your own Bible?
Since you believe that “only faith saves” , I guess you’re calling James, speaking of the works of the law of 10commandments, a liar in the following:
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Is James, in your opinion, saying that works is not necessary? Only faith is important and saves? Please answer using Biblical verses to substantiate your answers. Answers like “he kept the law for me” are not Biblical and are false.
You say:
Show me the verse that shows you can keep the Law. Or that keepers of the Law receive salvation on their merit.
Yes, with Hashem all is possible including keeping his commandments which he says are not grievous. Notice he says “that we keep” . If it weren’t possible to keep the commandments, he would say it.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Receiving merit you ask? Plenty of verses available. Here’s a couple.
Rev12:17 speaks of the remnant of the woman, the true church. They are the ones who keep his commandments and have the testimony of Yeshua. Yeshua can not keep the commandments for you to get in. He doesn’t give free passes.
The remnant make it to the kingdom and they’re commandment keepers. I’ve already showed you Rev 22:14. On your own merit, if you don’t keep the commandments, you don’t get in. The verse is very easy to understand. Furthermore, it mentions nothing about faith, but James 2:18-20 takes care of the faith issue.
Concerning Rev 22:14, it’s very clear that if one doesn’t make a priority of keeping the commandments, then his chances are slim to none of entering the kingdom. Yeshua is not responsible for your little red wagon. He did not keep the 10 commandments so you or I would be free to break them. What are you saying “Christ kept the Law for me, as he did for you.” How can he keep the law for me?? That doesn’t even make sense. You know the Bible mentions the severity of adding things to Scripture that are not Scriptural. The reason he obeyed the law was so that he would be presented as a perfect sacrifice as he entered the Holy heavenly sanctuary before his Father. Remember he told Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to his Father. Had he sinned he would not have been accepted and thus would have lost his Kingly heirship to the earthly Kingdom according to the Abrahamic covenant. Moses disobeyed the command given to him and he wasn’t permitted to enter the land of milk and honey. The same thing will happen on this coming 2nd Exodus. Many disobedient to the law will not enter the Kingdom on earth. Just like the the disobedient Sabbath breakers and idolators who died during the 40 years in the desert. Only their offsprings, that were born in the desert, entered.
You haven’t shown me what I previously asked for. You made a statement and I want to know where you got it from. Again I ask. Please answer so we may continue.
Show me one verse that says I’m free to sin because Yeshua died and “paid the penalty for sin for once for all”. That is not Biblical. I’de like for you to show me the exact verse that says that. It is false doctrine and contrary to Scripture. The verse does not exist. The word penalty doesn’t even exists in the King James New Testament.
Blessings in your search for TRUTH
‘Where does it say that? I want to read the verse that says he defeated death for all.’
1 Cor chapter 15.
‘How can he keep the Law for me? Which verse says that? It isn’t even logical. Are you writing your own Bible?’
Not keep, kept. Unless you are a non-believer in Christ’s atoning work. IJohn 2:1-2 Or you are not of this world. Are you contending that YOUR keeping of the Law will gain you salvation? Good luck with that. Romans 4:13-25
‘Is James, in your opinion, saying that works is not necessary? Only faith is important and saves?’
Whose works? Yours? Or the works “which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Eph 2:1-10 Apparently you believe you should be credited for those ‘works’? You are the Sovereign now? Do you credit yourself or Jesus for your Faith? How about grace, are you the only human who truly has earned it? Not a gift for you? Your works are a sack of rags.
‘Answers like “he kept the law for me” are not Biblical and are false.’
Really? Your righteousness and keeping of the Law are what you are relying upon? How else does one satisfy the requirements of the Law? With the wages of sin being death, do you intend to overcome that by yourself? No? Are you sinless? No one is justified by the Law. How is a just God going to deal with your sin without Christ? IJohn 2:1-2 Romans 2:28 Romans 3:20
‘Yes, with Hashem all is possible including keeping his commandments which he says are not grievous. Notice he says “that we keep” . If it weren’t possible to keep the commandments, he would say it.’
Too late, you have already transgressed the Law, probably many times, but once is enough as the Law brings wrath.
You contend that isn’t your case? Nice talking to you Jesus. Didn’t know you were a FReeper. Get real. Romans 3:22-24. Or perhaps you are just calling God a liar. 1John 1:8-10 Which is it?
‘The remnant make it to the kingdom and they’re commandment keepers. —’Rev12:17 speaks of the remnant of the woman, the true church. They are the ones who keep his commandments and have the testimony of Yeshua. Yeshua can not keep the commandments for you to get in. He doesn’t give free passes.—’The remnant make it to the kingdom and they’re commandment keepers. I’ve already showed you Rev 22:14. On your own merit, if you don’t keep the commandments, you don’t get in. The verse is very easy to understand. ‘
Please...Romans 3:20 Romans 3:13-14.
‘Concerning Rev 22:14, it’s very clear that if one doesn’t make a priority of keeping the commandments, then his chances are slim to none of entering the kingdom. Yeshua is not responsible for your little red wagon. He did not keep the 10 commandments so you or I would be free to break them. What are you saying “Christ kept the Law for me, as he did for you.” How can he keep the law for me??’
I would hope at this point that it is clear that no one has kept the Law. Yet by faith we uphold the Law. Romans 3:31
Moses (already covered) and Elijah (another who doubted God on occasion) were with Jesus at his Transfiguration. Elijah a great prophet didn’t keep the Commandments. Nor David a ancestor of our Lord...a catastrophe at commandment breaking yet saved because of faith. How were they justified by the Law? What are they doing in heaven?
‘How can he keep the law for me?? That doesn’t even make sense. ‘
I’m not surprised. How about if I said ‘He became sin for us’? That wouldn’t seem to make sense either. Jesus was delivered over for our sins, He has already paid the price. Believers are ‘good’ with God because of Christ. Romans 5:6-11.
‘Moses disobeyed the command given to him and he wasn’t permitted to enter the land of milk and honey.’
Yet Moses is in heaven. How did a disobedient murderer get to heaven? By his merit? God didn’t allow him to enter th promised land on earth. He didn’t obey the Commandments and he got them personally from God. Are you a greater man than he? Deut 34:10-12 Yet God Himself buried Moses. Deut 34:5-6.
‘Show me one verse that says I’m free to sin because Yeshua died and “paid the penalty for sin for once for all”.’
I never said you were free to sin, just that you will continue to sin as you have from birth. Not to mention your original sin, the ‘gift’ bestowed on all creatures since the Fall. I think the fact that Jesus has atoned for the sins of the world including yours are covered in the verses 1John chapter 2, as well as the Romans citations.
‘I’de like for you to show me the exact verse that says that. It is false doctrine and contrary to Scripture’
No, it is not false doctrine. What you have proposed through your reliance to keep the Law yourself is what is false. It also has no place with Christ. It is self- deception, 1John 5-10, brought to you by the father of lies. “If you say you have no sin you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you,” The Law shows us our sin. No one will be justified by the Law, it really is that simple. The rest of your arguments seem to point towards a non-reliance on Jesus. That is the shame here.
‘Perhaps I need to remind you what Paul says concerning this type of logic. By the way, when he says “under the law” he is not directly referring to the 10 commandment law.’
How about in Romans 3:20? Do you contend he is speaking of ‘man-made’ law there? We are made concious of sin through the law, sure sounds like he means the LAW as in the 10 Commandments.
‘I have a very simple yes or no question. Can you enter the kingdom and not keep the 10 commandments? Can you murder, steal, break the Sabbath, etc? Remember James 2:10, in reference to 10 commandments, says you break one , you break all.’
Yes, of course. Do you contend that Moses and David are not in the kingdom? The same Moses who appeared with Christ in during his Transfiguration. Through repentance, we are forgiven our sins. A rather foolish question. Beside the Triune God and His angels, who do you think is in heaven?
‘Rev12:17 speaks of the remnant of the woman, the true church. They are the ones who keep his commandments and have the testimony of Yeshua. Yeshua can not keep the commandments for you to get in. He doesn’t give free passes.’
‘have the testimony of Yeshua’, this is the operative phrase, Christ, not the Law.
Obedience does not earn anything. It is simply accepting salvation on God’s terms.
You say:
Not keep, kept. Unless you are a non-believer in Christ’s atoning work. IJohn 2:1-2 Or you are not of this world. Are you contending that YOUR keeping of the Law will gain you salvation? Good luck with that. Romans 4:13-25
First, which law are you referring to? Ordinances or 10 commandments? OK, let’s rephrase it. If he kept the 10 commanment law for me, then am I free to sin or break the 10 commandment law since he is my advocate? I’m contending that his death is not a free pass to disregard the law of the 10 commandments but to disregard the curses of the law from which he redeemed us. This is the part you fail to understand. Gal3:13. And yes, if you disregard the 10 commandment law, as I’ve shown you before, you are not going into the city. Rev 22:14; 1 Jo 5:3; Romans 6:15. Just because you have an advocate with the Father is no license to disregard his commandments. Although repentance is available, but Hashem knows the heart. These works of the big 10 are crucial and must not be taken lightly. You seem to want to ignore all the verses I’ve shown you.
You say in reference to James 2
“Whose works? Yours? Or the works “which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
Yes, James is speaking of my works. You’re trying to twist the Scriptures to suit your agenda. In verse 18 he is talking about current works of the law. That means obeying. Sounds like you’re saying he’s preparing us to obey in the future. You are talking in riddles. Works, in reference to the 10 commandments, is how we are justified and how we will be judged. Verse 24. Read James 2 about 10 times without trying to twist it to suit your agenda about how “faith alone saves”.
You say:
Eph 2:1-10 Apparently you believe you should be credited for those ‘works’? You are the Sovereign now? Do you credit yourself or Jesus for your Faith? How about grace, are you the only human who truly has earned it? Not a gift for you? Your works are a sack of rags.
What works are you referring to? You don’t realize that there are 2 types of works. Works of the laws of ordinances which were abolished at the cross and works of the big 10. My faith is of my choosing. Yeshua doesn’t choose my faith. Nobody earns grace. You keep voluntarily breaking the 10 commandments and you’ll find out where grace and faith lead you. Grace is a gift. And like any gift, one can receive it or reject it. You keep breaking the big 10 voluntarily and you fall from grace. You think repentance will be ticket out everytime? Good luck. Let me add that in Romans 3:20,24; 11:5,6; Ephesians2:11-15 (ordinances of the law); Galatians 2:16; 3:13. All referring to the curses of the law and the ordinance of circumcision relating to the land covenant. The works of the law of ordinances such as circumcision is the work that we are not justified under. In none of these verses or the ones you mention are we justified by works of circumcision. Yeshua’s saints, who enter into the gates, definitely perform good works and keep his 10 commandments. Works of the circumcision law ordinance are of no significance.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
How can anyone read these last 2 verses and say that “only faith saves”? Do you even make an attempt to keep the 7th day Sabbath of the 10 commandments? Or do you depending only on faith?
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Blessings in your search for TRUTH.
Have you never attempted to even appreciate the Letters to the Seven Churches in Asia in the Book of Revelation?
There is a treasure there.
You say in reference to Rev 12:17
‘have the testimony of Yeshua’, this is the operative phrase, Christ, not the Law.
I say:
Speak in English
You say:
Do you contend that Moses and David are not in the kingdom? The same Moses who appeared with Christ in during his Transfiguration. Through repentance, we are forgiven our sins. A rather foolish question. Beside the Triune God and His angels, who do you think is in heaven?
The kingdom has not arrived on earth yet. Do you see a King in the land of the covenant?
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
David is buried and dead in his sepulcre. No, he is not in any heaven a billion light years away.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Blessing in your search for TRUTH
Your Calvinism is showing through.
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