Replies

I Said: If you are not a Catholic, they say the same about you, do you call them names?

U Said: (Not sure what you mean here, DU?)

You responded to a post by me talkingabotuthe name calling that goes on on these threads, I was told Name calling showed my argument was weak, I responded that name calling happened on both sides. You jumped in and said (esentially) that it was becasue we said all other churhces are wrong, so I wondered if you also called Catholics name (we are all heritics together according to them.) If you that is your reason for calling us neame, do you callt hem names, if you don't call them names, why?

U Said: DU, I think what many LDS and non-LDS who read the broader context of the First Vision statement by Smith pass right over is how a 14 yo lad simply invested WAY to much in confused teen feelings...and that's why Lady Lawyer actually did us a favor by citing the broader context of Smith's First Vision statement...here's what she quoted:

You go ahead and find an excuse for him any way you want, the diffrence is, I have read the Book of Momron and prayed about it in accordance witht he Bible, and I have recieved an answer from God. God tells me the Book of Mormon is true, he also told me that Jesus Christ lived in Israel, and Died for my sins. This answer to my prayer specifically fulfills the requirements for a spirit being of God as recorded in First John 4:1-3

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

If Joseph was just having teen hormones The Spirit of God would not be testifying of his work.

Nice try...

I have read the Book of Momron and prayed about it in accordance witht he Bible, and I have recieved an answer from God. God tells me the Book of Mormon is true, he also told me that Jesus Christ lived in Israel...

So "God told you that Jesus Christ lived in Israel"...did God also tell you that Jesus was born in "Jerusalem" as the Book of Mormon erroneously claims? (Alma 7:10). How could this be (as LDS leaders have claimed) the "most correct book on earth" if Smith couldn't it get right--yet Micah was perfectly able to do so prophetically well in advance?

(Micah was even able to pinpoint which Bethlehem it was...for there were two...by saying it was the smaller of the two...Bethlehem Ephrata...Jerusalem was a totally separate city--not a region or province or state. In fact it was a "walled city." Anything outside of the wall was outside of Jerusalem.)

So if I wanted to, I could pray to your god about where Jesus died, and if he revealed to me that he died in Los Angeles, that kind of "answer" receiving from him is A-OK?

If Joseph was just having teen hormones The Spirit of God would not be testifying of his work.

Then how do you explain Amulek making a similar claim? Amulek said in Alma 11:22, that if it be according to the Spirit of the Lord, which is in me; for I shall say nothing which is contrary to the Spirit of the Lord…So what did Amulek go on to say a few verses later?

(1) According to the Spirit of the Lord…in me he said there is A true and living god…

(2) …and No--there’s no more than one God (Alma 11:26-31)

(3) …and not only does Amulek claim he speaks nothing contrary to the Spirit of the Lord, but he adds that he knows these things because an angel hath made them known unto me in verse 31.

DU, how many gods do you believe there are? ONLY “One” like Amulek and the Bible claims? (Or if LDS don’t like that answer, they can keep praying unto God until they seem to receive an answer they like?) Which "spirit" was believeable--the one speaking alongside an angel to Amulek? Or the "spirit" speaking to Smith that led him to talk about many gods and a "council of gods" very late in his life?

Here’s Alma 11:22, 26-31:

And Amulek said unto him: Yea, if it be according to the Spirit of the Lord, which is in me; for I shall say nothing which is contrary to the Spirit of the Lord. And Zeezrom said unto him: Behold, here are six onties of silver, and all these will I give thee if thou wilt deny the existence of a Supreme Being. And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No. Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things? And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.”

Do you mean to say that if I pray to God about how many “Holy Ghosts” there are he might answer & testify unto me that there are many? (Why would we also need to pray about the clear things already revealed in the Bible? What? You accuse the Holy Ghost of being a poor communicator?)

I have read the Book of Momron and prayed about it…

DU, which version did you pray about?

Did you pray about the 1830 version? Or a much later version?

Did you pray about the 1 Nephi 18:18-32 1830 version (p. 25), or the 1 Nephi 18:18-32 reprint version where the “everlasting God” is edited out without you even being told?

Did you pray about the 1830 version of the Book of Mormon (p. 200), where it mentions King Benjamin in Mosiah 21:28 & Ether 4:1…but then is later changed (minus any footnote in the Book of Mormon to tell us of the change) to King Mosiah? Or did you pray about a reprint version? [Why was this changed? Because 1 of 2 things happened: If the Book of Mormon is true, then King Benjamin who dies in Mosiah 6:4-5 pops back up alive again in Mosiah 21…and LDS leaders wanted to deny an untold story here of a resurrection of King Benjamin…but LDS leaders, not believing that such a fantastic story such as a real resurrection would have been omitted by the story-teller, decides that what was alleged by Smith was flat-out wrong…and decided to change history…Imagine that, these gold plates preserving the record of King Benjamin all these millennia only to have LDS “editors” come along and change history!]

Well, what implications do these and the other thousands of errors in the Book of Mormon have? It means the angel who communicated to Smith was wrong. The “witnesses” to the translation process have already said that the plates were revealed unto Smith character by character until it comprised a line upon line…until completion, where an angel supposedly appeared to Smith and said: "These plates have been translated by the power of God. The translation of them which you have seen is correct, and I command you to bear record of what you now see and hear." (Joseph Smith in "History of the Church" vol. 1, p. 55)

Now was the angel wrong here, DU? Was this angel fired upon returning for getting her “review” wrong when the angel concluded that the translation of them which you have seen is correct? Which of these angels (Moroni, etc ) were right and which were wrong?

… becasue we said all other churhces are wrong, so I wondered if you also called Catholics name (we are all heritics together according to them.) If you that is your reason for calling us neame, do you callt hem names, if you don't call them names, why?

DU, allow me to explain the difference to you of an “apostate” vs. a “heretic.” I’ve seen a few FReeper posts that say, “LDS call Christians ‘apostates’; Christians call LDS ‘heretics.’ So it’s a ‘wash.’” Here’s the problem with that statement:

First of all, somebody can be either aberrant or “heretical” in one belief but be orthodox on almost everything else. For example, a 7th-day Adventist could believe that EVERYBODY must worship on Saturdays, and that the only true Christians are those who reserve Saturdays for the Sabath…but they could be orthodox on most everything else. An “apostate” on the other hand describes somebody who has completely left his faith. Mormons are referencing us as a total spiritual wash!!! I don’t believe about Mormons, for example, what their “Scripture” says about Christians: That “ALL” creeds we hold are an “abomination in his sight.” Nor would I claim that ALL professing Mormon believers are “corrupt”—yet the LDS “Scripture” maintains this when it describes those of "Christian sects."

Finally whatever “names” have been called of others with different beliefs, you’d be quite hard-pressed to find chapter and verse in the Bible that would prove a direct linkage…there’s no passage in Revelation for example, in talking about the 7 churches, where it says “Oh, and this 8th church over here, the Church of Mormo, it’s heretical.” (That can’t be said of LDS “Scriptures” where it specifically references “Christian sects” as being “ALL wrong” and not worthy of joining).