Haven't Anti-Mormons Completely Destroyed the Credibility of Mormonism?

jefflindsay.com ^ | Nov. 5, 2006 | Jeff Lindsay

[restornu]

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Haven't Anti-Mormons Completely Destroyed the Credibility of Mormonism?

It is a common myth that anti-Mormon attacks have completely overwhelmed the intellectual position of Latter-day Saints, leaving us with nothing but blind faith in "warm feelings" we get about the Church. The portrayal of Mormons as idiots without any intellectual foundation in our religion is a common caricature based on deceptive marketing. With the flood of anti-Mormon arguments, books, pamphlets, movies, and Web sites, it is easy to think that Mormonism would be completely devastated if only 10% of all the things said against it were true.

I once met a new convert, a college student, in my town of Appleton, Wisconsin, who showed me a couple of thick books loaded with accusations against the Church. She was upset and angry and planning to leave the Church. I tried to calm her down, and one by one, we discussed the arguments that were bothering her. Once one attack was diffused, she raised another, and another, and I think I helped her see that there was little merit to what she had raised so far, and that the bulk of the anti-Mormon material was truly deceptive. Then she just dug in her heels and said, "Well, it doesn't matter. If only 10% of all the things in here are true, that's enough to destroy the Church!" She left the Church, and if she had lived 2,000 years ago as an early Christian convert, I'm sure she would have left the Church then, too. After all, if only 10% of the things that the anti-Christians said were true, then that would be enough to destroy Christianity, right? (Oh, how I wish modern education would help people understand that critical thinking means more than just thinking of criticism.)

Anti-Mormon literature is often ignorant of what Latter-day Saints really believe and especially ignorant of LDS authors have written in response to anti-Mormon attacks. Many of the common attacks against the Church are regurgitated arguments from the nineteenth century, arguments which have been thoroughly and carefully treated by responsible LDS writers who do much more than just talk about some warm feeling in their hearts. But the anti-Mormon writers and speakers of today make it sound as if no Mormon has ever dared to respond to their awesome arguments, and that the Church can only retreat and hide when faced with an intellectual battle.

The flaws in some standard anti-Mormon arguments have been pointed out by a number of non-LDS writers. In one interesting example, two evangelical critics of the Church, Carl Mosser and Paul Owen, presented a paper at the 1997 Evangelical Theological Society Far West Annual Meeting, April 25, 1997 that warned the evangelical community about the impressive efforts of LDS scholars and criticized the blind approach of typical anti-Mormon literature. Their article, "Mormon Scholarship, Apologetics, and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?" (later published in Trinity Journal, Fall 1998, pp. 179-205), is one of the most intriguing non-LDS articles I've ever encountered from critics of the Church. (One of several copies of it on the Web can be found at ComeToZarahemla.org, Ben Spackman's Website, or Cephas Ministry.)

Mosser and Owen note that anti-LDS writers have ignored the work of some LDS scholars who are providing "robust defenses" of the LDS faith. In preparing their paper, Mosser and Owen did something that few critics have done: they have actually read a wide variety of LDS scholarly writings. As a result, they came to the following five conclusions:

The first [conclusion] is that there are, contrary to popular evangelical perceptions, legitimate Mormon scholars. We use the term scholar in its formal sense of "intellectual, erudite; skilled in intellectual investigation; trained in ancient languages." Broadly, Mormon scholarship can be divided into four categories: traditional, neo-orthodox, liberal and cultural. We are referring to the largest and most influential of the four categories--traditional Mormon scholars. It is a point of fact that the Latter-day Saints are not an anti-intellectual group like Jehovah's Witnesses. Mormons, in distinction to groups like JWs, produce work that has more than the mere appearance of scholarship. The second conclusion we have come to is that Mormon scholars and apologists (not all apologists are scholars) have, with varying degrees of success, answered most of the usual evangelical criticisms. Often these answers adequately diffuse particular (minor) criticisms. When the criticism has not been diffused the issue has usually been made much more complex.

A third conclusion we have come to is that currently there are, as far as we are aware, no books from an evangelical perspective that responsibility interact with contemporary LDS scholarly and apologetic writings. In a survey of twenty recent evangelical books criticizing Mormonism we found that none interact with this growing body of literature. Only a handful demonstrate any awareness of pertinent works. Many of the authors promote criticisms that have long been refuted; some are sensationalistic while others are simply ridiculous. A number of these books claim to be "the definitive" book on the matter. That they make no attempt to interact with contemporary LDS scholarship is a stain upon the authors' integrity and causes one to wonder about their credibility.

Our fourth conclusion is that at the academic level evangelicals are losing the debate with the Mormons. We are losing the battle and do not know it. In recent years the sophistication and erudition of LDS apologetics has risen considerably while evangelical responses have not. Those who have the skills necessary for this task rarely demonstrate an interest in the issues. Often they do not even know that there is a need. In large part this is due entirely to ignorance of the relevant literature.

Finally, our fifth conclusion is that most involved in the counter-cult movement lack the skills and training necessary to answer Mormon scholarly apologetic. The need is great for trained evangelical biblical scholars, theologians, philosophers and historians to examine and answer the growing body of literature produced by traditional LDS scholars and apologists.

(Further analysis based on the paper of Mosser and Owen has been provided by Justin Hart in "Winning the Battle and Not Knowing It," in MeridianMagazine.com, an article in five parts: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, and Part 5. For an interesting example of the issues that Owen and Mosser have raised, see Paul Owen's rebuttal of anti-Mormon John Weldon's response to the original article of Mosser and Owen. Owen appears to be appalled at the "head-in-the-sand" approach of John Weldon, who has demonstrated the very problems that Mosser and Owen speak against in their paper and says that Weldon's anti-Mormon "intellectual narrow-mindedness" is "astounding."

Latter-day Saints who study the responses of LDS writers to anti-Mormon criticisms know that there are many excellent resources which may refute or at least defuse many of the arguments hurled against us. These resources, found at places like FARMS, The Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIRLDS.org), SHIELDS, and even my little Web site (including my Mormon Answers section), do not rely on blind faith and emotional feelings to deal with the critics - though there are some tough issues like polygamy for which we don't have good answers (ugh - I really don't like polygamy!). But for many issues, Mosser and Owen are correct in observing that there are "robust defenses." In fact, many of the defenses turn the tables on the critics and leave them in intellectually untenable positions. In fact, we could turn around and ask them a few tough questions of our own -- see, for example, "My Turn--Questions for Anti-Mormons."

What is an anti-Mormon? Anyone who disagrees with you?

This is a poorly defined term, but I would say that only the activists who attack the Church in a way intended to generate misunderstanding, fear, and shock are the ones who deserve the epithet of "anti-Mormons." Many such "Mormon bashers" feel that the end justifies the means, and use tactics that are incompatible with the truthful example of Christ.

There is plenty of room for decent people to disagree with us. Sometimes I even disagree with "us." Most Protestants and Catholics who disagree with us are not "anti-Mormons" but simply people of another denomination. But when someone strives to stir up anger toward the Church and relies on misinformation or half-truths, then I'm inclined to apply the anti-Mormon label--especially when they do it for a living. On the borderline are well meaning people who feel an evangelical duty to battle "cults" (which tend to be any group that disagrees with them) and write articles regurgitating the sensationalist and shocking diatribes of full-blooded anti-Mormons. I tend to call such critics anti-Mormons as well (I sense that they usually don't mind the title, unless they are posing as "loving friends of the Mormons" in order to launch more effective assaults on our faith). Those of other faiths who disagree with us and engage in civil discourse with us about their differences are usually not "anti-Mormons" but perhaps simply critics or just adherents of a different faith.

What tactics do anti-Mormons use?

Some pastors and ministers who might consider themselves as anti-Mormons are sincere in their differences with LDS theology and write intelligently and honestly about their views. They can differ without distorting the truth and can be respectful and kind in their discussions. I guess that intelligent and honest writing doesn't sell well, because the vast majority of popular writing against the Church is ugly, deceptive, and inflammatory. This is the stuff that I tend to call "anti-Mormon."

But others are deliberately deceptive, at least in my opinion. Some know what we really believe, but go out of their way to distort it. I feel that way about Ed Decker's classic work, The God Makers. His movies and writings create the impression that temples are evil, scary places with devil worship, homosexuality, and conspiracy. He alleges that Mormons are plotting to take over the country and impose a theological dictatorship. He warns people not to pray to understand the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, frightening them with the idea that Satan will come and deceive them if they do. I think this goes beyond the sincere.

One of the strangest and most dishonest tactics of some anti-Mormons is falsely claiming to have advanced degrees in order to buttress their credibility. An amazing example is Dee Jay Nelson, who gained the trust of many people by claiming to have academic credentials and an international scholarly reputation--all of which was entirely bogus. He was a con-man who led many gullible people out of the Church during the peak of his illegitimate career as an anti-Mormon lecturer. Others include "Dr." Walter Martin and the amusing "Dr. Dr." John Ankenberg (yes, he lists himself as "Dr. Dr." as if he had two doctorates, though he lacks even one - and no real Ph.D. with two degrees would describe himself as "Dr. Dr."!). The father of anti-Mormons, Doctor Philastrus Hurlbut, was actually named "Doctor" by his parents but lacked a degree. I don't think he promoted himself as if he had the degree, but that title has been used by others to increase respect for that immoral and twice excommunicated anti-Mormon. Other questionable anti-Mormon "Drs." include John Weldon, and James White.

Michael T. Griffith has a page showing some of the tactics of a prominent anti-Mormon. It illustrates how some anti-Mormons seem to deliberately distort LDS writings to achieve their own questionable purposes. The anti-Mormon in this case is Mr. Bill McKeever, the director of the anti-Mormon group Mormonism Research Ministry. I have also corresponded with Mr. McKeever and encountered yet another tactic that typifies many of the self-appointed cult bashers on the Internet. I grew frustrated that my responses to lengthy lists of charges and allegations were largely ignored, and simply followed by other lengthy letters loaded with more allegations and accusations than I could possibly deal with. Any issue I addressed was ignored and followed by additional long letters on new topics. Soon it was clear that the communication was intended to be only one way. It took many requests and finally a complaint to McKeever's e-mail provider before Mr. McKeever would quit sending me unsolicited lengthy anti-Mormon articles.

But that may just be enthusiastic zeal. Maybe it's being overly enthusiastic that leads me to use the "anti" label with some folks. Look, it's subjective, and may be used in error sometimes.

Among the specific tactics used by those I consider anti-Mormons, an especially interesting one is their creative use of definitions to classify Mormons as a cult or as non-Christian. Ironically, the non-standard definitions they craft would also condemn Christ and His early disciples in the New Testament as cultists and non-Christians. For details, see my page, "Do Latter-day Saints Belong to a Cult?" For a tongue-in-cheek demonstration of related anti-Mormon techniques, see my spoof page about an exciting new software product, CultMaster 2000.

A useful resource for information of major anti-Mormons and anti-Mormon organizations, with links to refutational material, is the Critics Corner at Shields-Research.org.

An excellent resource exposing many anti-Mormon tactics is They Lie in Wait to Deceive, Volumes 1-4 by Robert and Rosemary Brown.

Why do evangelicals get so down on Mormons?

Daniel C. Peterson authored the following passage on the Evangelical approach:

The fact is that evangelical Protestantism represents a faction, no more, of a minority faction, no more, of Christianity. That faction arose, relatively late, in northwestern Europe, and it is still basically dominant only among those of northwestern European extraction. It is distinctly a minority in Italy and Brazil and Mexico and Spain and France and Argentina, and it is virtually invisible in Greece and Romania and Russia and Armenia and the Ukraine, to say nothing of Syria, Turkey, Egypt, and Iraq.

Latter-day Saints do not claim that their faith-group is exhaustive of Christendom. We recognize that there are Catholic and Orthodox and other Christians. Some evangelical Protestants seem reluctant, however, to grant that the Copts or the Catholics are Christians at all. Some say so implicitly, and others have told me so explicitly, under direct questioning.

Latter-day Saints do, of course, claim that God has acted to restore the true fullness of Christianity, and that that fulness is embodied in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Such a claim can seem arrogant, and I, for one, would be very hesitant to make it -- indeed, I would refuse to make it -- were it not for the presupposition of direct revelation that undergirds it.

To assert, as some evangelicals have declared directly to me, that they alone are Christians, and that they have arrived at their unique Christianity by virtue of their own reading of the Bible -- implicitly dismissing the other claimants to Christianity as either preternaturally stupid or irrationally evil or some mixture of the two -- seems to me both arrogant and, in view of the fact that the preponderant majority of world "Christians" hold to different opinions, quite unlikely to be true. Even to claim that evangelical Protestants alone are "biblical" or "orthodox" Christians, seems an improbable and smug declaration.

That is the point. Ironically, Latter-day Saints rely, here, upon God's grace, where some of my evangelical interlocutors -- the ones that I have in mind -- seem quite evidently to trust in their own understanding.

But most envamgelicals, though critical of our religion, are not what I would call "anti-Mormons." In fact, many are very respectful and tolerant, in spite of their strong disagreement with our views. The evangelicals I have know over the years have largely been fine examples of Christians who were not out to defame us or stir up fear about the Mormons, and have been great people to dialog with.

What Do Scholars Think of Hugh Nibley?

Some anti-Mormons seem ignorant of Hugh Nibley's work. When forced to confront his writings, many rapidly dismiss him as irresponsible, biased, sloppy, deceitful, etc. On the other hand, there are some non-LDS folks who have pointed out a variety of flaws in Nibley's writings. While Nibley did much to advance study of the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham, LDS people must understand that his work can be rather dated now and often contains errors that he is not around to correct now. Enjoy it, but proceed with caution. But proceed with even more caution with anything I write, for I am far less competent and qualified that he was - I'm just an amateur apologist, guys.

Regarding Nibley, as brilliant and talented as he was, he spent much of his life writing for LDS audiences, and thus may not be widely recognized by other scholars in his field. in spite of some great early publications. That's my opinion, though I have incredible respect for him, having watched him in action and having read much of his work.

Some related insight into Nibley is provided by two well educated anti-LDS writers, Carl Mosser and Paul Owen, mentioned above, whose article, "Mormon Scholarship, Apologetics, and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?," is one of the most intriguing anti-LDS articles I've ever encountered. It warns that anti-LDS writers have essentially completely ignored the significant scholarship of Hugh Nibley and many other LDS scholars who are providing "robust defenses" of the LDS faith. In preparing their paper, Mosser and Owen did something that few anti-LDS writers have done: they have actually read a variety of LDS scholarly writings. Their response, paraphrased, is: "Wake up, anti-Mormons! We're losing the intellectual war without even knowing it!" Here is what they say about Nibley:

Hugh Nibley: The Father of Mormon Scholarly Apologetics
Hugh Nibley is without question the pioneer of LDS scholarship and apologetics. Since earning his Ph.D. at the University of California at Berkeley in 1939, Nibley has produced a seemingly endless stream of books and articles covering a dauntingly vast array of subject matter. Whether writing on Patristics, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the apocrypha, the culture of the Ancient Near East or Mormonism, he demonstrates an impressive command of the original languages, primary texts and secondary literature. He has set a standard which younger LDS intellectuals are hard pressed to follow. There is not room here for anything approaching an exhaustive examination of Nibley's works.(1) We must confess with Truman Madsen, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy and Religion at Brigham Young University: "To those who know him best, and least, Hugh W. Nibley is a prodigy, an enigma, and a symbol."(2)

The few evangelicals who are aware of Hugh Nibley often dismiss him as a fraud or pseudo-scholar. Those who would like to quickly dismiss his writings would do well to heed Madsen's warning: "Ill-wishing critics have suspected over the years that Nibley is wrenching his sources, hiding behind his footnotes, and reading into antique languages what no responsible scholar would every read out. Unfortunately, few have the tools to do the checking."(3) The bulk of Nibley's work has gone unchallenged by evangelicals despite the fact that he has been publishing relevant material since 1946. Nibley's attitude toward evangelicals: "We need more anti-Mormon books. They keep us on our toes."(4)

No doubt there are flaws in Nibley's work, but most counter-cultists do not have the tools to demonstrate this. Few have tried.(5) It is beyond the scope of this paper to critique Nibley's methodology or to describe the breadth of his apologetic.(6) Whatever flaws may exist in his methodology, Nibley is a scholar of high caliber. Many of his more important essays first appeared in academic journals such as the Revue de Qumran, Vigiliae Christianae, Church History, and the Jewish Quarterly Review.(7) Nibley has also received praise from non-LDS scholars such as Jacob Neusner, James Charlesworth, Cyrus Gordon, Raphael Patai and Jacob Milgrom.(8) The former dean of the Harvard Divinity School, George MacRae, once lamented while hearing him lecture, "It is obscene for a man to know that much!"(9) Nibley has not worked in a cloister. It is amazing that few evangelical scholars are aware of his work. In light of the respect Nibley has earned in the non-LDS scholarly world it is more amazing that counter-cultists can so glibly dismiss his work.

Footnotes from the above passage:
1. FARMS is currently working on a twenty volume collection of Nibley's works, ten of which are already published (abbr. CWHN).

2. Truman Madsen, foreword to Nibley on the Timely and the Timeless: Classic Essays of Hugh W. Nibley, edited by Madsen (Provo: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1978), ix.

3. Ibid., xiv.

4. Quoted by Madsen, ibid., xi.

5. In fact, the only substantial evangelical interaction we have seen to date is James White's 56 page (single spaced) disputation of the proper syntax of the pronoun in Matthew 16:18. This paper can be acquired from the Alpha & Omega Ministries Internet site.

6. For a sharp critique of Nibley's methodology from an LDS perspective see Kent P. Jackson in BYU Studies 28 no. 4 (Fall 1988):114-119.

7. Specific references can be found in John M. Lundquist and Stephen D. Ricks, eds., By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co. and FARMS, 1990), 1:xviii-lxxxvii.

8. See the contributions by these men in volume one of Nibley's festschrift By Study and Also by Faith.

9. See Philip L. Barlow, Mormons and the Bible (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1991), 147 n. 105.

Where can I find resources to respond to anti-LDS attacks?

I think my LDSFAQ Suite offers useful answers to many common questions and allegations. Other general resources with many articles and responses include:

FARMS

The Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies in Provo, Utah, is the leading organization for scholarly understanding of LDS issues, especially the scriptures. They are a tremendous source of valuable research and publications. As one of many examples from FARMS, one of the best written articles dealing with typical anti-Mormon attacks is that of Russell C. McGregor and Kerry A. Shirts, "Letters to an Anti-Mormon," FARMS Review of Books, Vol. 11, No. 1, 1999, pp. 90-298 (I said it was good, not short!).

The Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIRLDS.org)

Offering many sound articles and other resources for those wishing to understand intellectual issues involving Latter-day Saint religion.

SHIELDS

A competent and diverse LDS resource for those wishing to explore LDS doctrine, history, and rebuttals to anti-Mormon allegations.

Russell Anderson's Response Page"

A collection of resources and discussion of common anti-Mormon attacks. There is also some fascinating information on some of the most famous professional anti-Mormons.

A Resource for LDS Apologetics

By Kevin Graham. A collection of articles and resources, including many articles by Kevin.

Other specific resources:

• Credible responses to Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters' Inventing Mormonism are found on a page by Russell Anderson.
• Information on "Dr." Walter Martin - by Russel Anderson

[Old Mountain man]

Fortunately, WE DON’T HAVE TO DEFEND ANYTHING TO YOU!

[Old Mountain man]

Just a passing cloud of methane gas.

[Old Mountain man]

At least I know the difference between suit and suite. You really are in a cloud of darkness.

[presently no screen name]

Wondering when you were going to see that. Good for you - but very very slow.

[presently no screen name]

A tad bombastic

Bombastic, hostile, - is how you see TRUTH!

Whatever’s bothering you will seem much better by morning.

Nothing is bothering me - but that's your ONLY response when you have outed yourself/mindset one more time. The fact 'bothered' came into YOUR mind - you are the one that is bothered and you SHOULD BE! Big Time.

Mormons bow to Prophets, Christians bow to God.

[restornu]

The source is there for anyone who wants to learn more about the Church!

There is nothing in the Church Standard Works that contradict the Lord word or his Scriptures.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD

http://www.fairlds.org/links.html

My attacks are mild with some here who want to compare the LDS as SOP.

I have been on these sites for many years and I can say this is the worst crop of those who call them “Christians” I ever come across, none of you show any reverence or humility and get off bash the LDS thinking you scored brownie points with the Lord.

None here want to discuss so many just want to tear down, and heaven for bit you should compare what we have in common, so many could not afford that, it might invite the Spirit of Lord and than one could not bash the LDS in good faith!

I have come across many in the mainstream who have the light of Christ in their life and would never think of letting the things that come out of many of your mouths.

Can’t converse too much with folks who have no tolerance for any one but themselves!

[tantiboh]

A brief summary of the conversations of this thread:

“You think prophets are higher than Christ.”

“No, we believe Christ is the Savior.”

“No, you follow prophets, not Christ.”

“We follow Christ.”

“Nuh-uh! You worship prophets!”

“No, we don’t! We worship Christ, not prophets!”

“See? You worship prophets! Stop lying!”

“No, we don’t!”

“Yes, you do, cultist!”

“Nuh-uh!”

“Yuh-huh!”

...yada, yada, yada...

Well, I’ve had enough of playing with the belligerent children who have hijacked this thread. Regards to all.

[Old Mountain man]

Was busy doing other things. Of course, it took you a while to figure out what I was saying. Did you have to check your dictionary? Or do you not believe in dictionaries?

[Colofornian]

Tanty, you REALLY need to back up to post #389 because you’re falling away from your points there & because of that you’ve switched on to a distinct jetstream with BOTH of your posts of #638 & #825…

IOW, you’ve haven’t reinforced what you said in #389, and you didn’t address my thoughts on that same wave length (from #617, which means you still need to address those]

Anyway, this is EXACTLY what happens either…

(a) …when one of us doesn’t keep track of our own posts on a long thread [and if this is what happened, I understand…it’s tough for me as well to keep my past posts straight]

(b) …or, I suppose if I wanted to castigate the worst possible motive, the only other possibility I could see if (a) above isn’t so, would be to accuse you of bait & switch tactics...where one post you're talking about revelation in a "narrow" sense and then when you know you can't defend Mormonism on that ground, you open it up to talk about revelation in the "broadest" possible sense.

Knowing of your general good will, I’ll assume that it was (a) above. My qualifier in this, tho, is that 1 or 2 LDS folks have done some similar bait & switch tactics on this exact same topic which has made me a bit leary.

Allow me to summarize what I mean, and then backtrack to document our exchange : You made this broad sweeping indictment of “Christendom” that it doesn’t “believe that God still speaks to His people.” When you said this, I thought, “Tantiboh couldn’t possibly be talking about the ‘bulk of Christendom’ because the bulk of Christendom indeed believes God still speaks to His people. (They believe this thru (a) answered prayer; (b) folks who prophesy via a spiritual gift as recorded in 1 Cor. 12; (c) thru His written Word; (d) thru His Living Word, Jesus Christ; e) thru other people...a good chunk of Christendom would even add (f) dreams, etc.)

Now I was in a hurry when I responded in 617 & didn’t include b, c, or d, e or f then…but even on (a) alone you know that what you said isn’t true. Therefore, I thought you couldn’t possibly be talking about “revelation” in the broadest possible view. You could only be talking about revelation in the “narrow” view—revelation that is imbedded in Scripture…for that’s the only type of revelation in which the “bulk of Christendom” has closed the door on. Since I couldn’t imagine you making a bald-face outrageous lie if you were indeed talking about “revelation” in the broadest sense, I answered back dealing with “revelation” in the narrow sense…I was essentially saying “OK hotshot. You want to slam ‘Christendom’ for how it treats God as ‘speaker’—let’s see what words the Mormon god as ‘speaker’ has been placed in LDS ‘Scriptures?’"

To refresh your memory, here’s what you said in post #389: We believe in an open canon. God continues to speak. If He gives new light and knowledge that the membership of the Church finds sufficiently precious to include in our scriptures, it will be included. The last time this happened was 1918 (some would argue 1978). Some think that the Proclamation to the World could appropriately be called “Section 139, pending.” Unlike the bulk of Christendom, we believe that God still speaks to His people, as He has always done. It’s a pity most people don’t choose to listen.

To sum up, you addressed (1) Open canon. (2) Revelations sufficiently precious to include in our scriptures. (3) That which was added to LDS Scriptures in declaration form. (4) Your slam against the Christian church: Unlike the bulk of Christendom, we believe that God still speaks to His people, as He has always done

Now compare your approach in 389 to those in 638/825: You go from talking about …

(a)…“open canons” in 389 to non-canonic revelations in 638 & 825…

(b)…revelations sufficiently precious to include in our scriptures in 389 to ongoing daily administrative type revelations in 638 ( Revelation is ongoing. It is operative continuously in the day-to-day direction of the Church. ) and 825 (Revelation is a pretty regular thing)

( c ) … a “Christendom” that doesn’t believe that God still speaks to His people in 389 –essentially critiquing us for not adding to the Bible—to defending the LDS Church for not adding to its own LDS “Scriptures” in 638 & 825. (IOW, precious few things have “made the cut” (post-Joseph Smith).

Talk about not staying within the confines of the direction you took the exchange! [And again, for someone less sincere than your track record, this would be classic bait & switch tactics]

So, allow me to repost #617. Please address it from the same angles you covered in #389 (open canon, revelations sufficiently precious to include in your Scriptures, that which was added in declaration form vs. revelational form, and your claim that Christendom denies that God still speaks to His people). Here it is:

Overextension. Ask most Christians if they believe, for example, if God answers prayers...they'll say "yes"...Mormons believe this too, calling this "personal revelation") On the other hand, care to tell us all exactly how many times since Smith has died that an LDS "prophet"... (a)...heard something from God... (b)...started the "canonization" process themselves... (c)...called it a "revelation" from God (and not some major social issues "declaration")? I think the "answer" is 0 times, is it not? (Wow! Some great importance it is to have that Amos 3:7 man @ the helm, eh?) [Post #617]

[Old Mountain man]

Good grief! I gotta go back and follow this thread tomorrow when I’ve had some sleep, but it looks interesting.

[presently no screen name]

Are you the appointed Mormon spell checker Prophet?

[Old Mountain man]

Nope, I only hold the callings of husband, father, home teacher and Temple worker.

[P-Marlowe]

Does this mean your parents are not talking to you!

If they performed an EEG on my parents and compared it to yours, I'm pretty sure that their brains would register more activity than yours.

[Saundra Duffy]

(From the LDS hymn book)

“As I have loved you,
Love one another.
This new commandment;
Love one another.
By this shall men know
Ye are my disciples,
If ye have love
One to another.”

It is really hard sometimes, especially on this site. Sheeesh.

I wish they’d go pick on the Mennonites for a while.

Love ya, Sis

[P-Marlowe]

I wish they’d go pick on the Mennonites for a while.

So are you one of those Anti-Mennonites?

[Saundra Duffy]

How you feeling, Sis? Many have been praying for you.

Now . . . you said, “If you believe it, defend it, but don’t deny it.”

I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He is my Savior, Redeemer and Personal Friend. There is so much doctrine to be debated and debated and debated - LDS and all other Churches. It is not about the doctrine. It is about Jesus Christ, our Savior. Nothing else really matters.

However, since you obviously do not agree - and you are not alone - that Jesus Christ and His Atoning Sacrifice is the main focus of our LDS faith, then we are wasting valuable time and effort.

God bless you.

[Saundra Duffy]

I am not anti Mennonite. I think they are cool. They believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and our Redeemer and Savior. That’s all I need to know. You, on the other hand, might be interested to know that Mennonites are often seen marching in those “peace” rallies. They are non violent to a stupid degree. But as I said, they believe in Jesus which is all I care about when it comes to faith.

[P-Marlowe]

I was incorrect when I said it is Church doctrine.

You're starting to dissemble like Hinckley.

A more appropriate phrase for me to have used would have been “Church philosophy.”

The Biblical term is "Doctrines of Demons".

Enough of this, though. I don’t expect your agenda here is any more than to convince yourself that Mormonism is wrong.

My quest is to get Mormons to give straightforward answers to straightforward questions so that lurkers can see for themselves what it is that the Mormon Church REALLY believes. I long ago was convinced that Mormonism is a false religion and that its peculiar doctrines are demonic.

I choose not to aid you any more with that.

I don't need any help from you. But you have been quite helpful in showing the ability of Mormons to dissemble about their doctrines, pretending that they have the fullness of the gospel, when in fact they have nothing more than a demonic perversion of the gospel wherein God is nothing more than an exalted man who became a God after being obedient to the laws and ordinances of the God who came before him.. Even as a philosophy, that is blasphemous.

There is nothing new under the sun:

Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. (Jeremiah 14:14 KJV)

[P-Marlowe]

But as I said, they believe in Jesus which is all I care about when it comes to faith.

If that is all that is important, then why don't you join the Presbyterian Church? Why do your missionaries go to Christian countries and try to convert catholics and protestants to Mormonism. Don't those churches teach belief in Jesus? Why would they need or even want to become Mormons?

[Old Mountain man]

Well, if they spawned you, there might well be no activity there. I hear that intelligence is genetically related.