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Locked on 02/20/2008 6:54:12 AM PST by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior |
Posted on 02/16/2008 3:13:15 PM PST by restornu
Thank you I really needed to hear the sweet sounds that soothe the soul!
Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUhU0HgTq94
~”There is more...”~
Yes. And it’s ALL been debunked. Google is your friend.
Nana, you really need to get out more. You spend far too much time obsessing over Joseph Smith. I think it’s starting to get to you.
ROFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Resty, that was quite lovely as well...sweet sounds indeed...hope you are well..
This guy keep posting his ax to grind but will never say why he hates the LDS!
Ignorance. Wilful ignorance.
Other tactics don’t tear down false or true faith, they merely manifest lack of faith through Christ.
Well said. I second that notion. I find it amazing that I can study Scripture, have fellowship with God and rejoice in what He reveals from His Word, yet amazingly when I’m exposed to those who constantly denigrate His Word or attempt to add meanings not present in His Word, I have no joy in the meanings they promote. Yet wehn I return to Him, and simply allow Him to guide me in His Word, joy returns and He is always true.
Selected and contrived? I gave you just a few words from each reference, read the references in their entire context, they are even more clear than just the snippet I gave you. Actually, at the end of this post, I'll give you the compete reference on some more, and additional references on this topic as well.
Also, you may find this of interest. I posted this a few weeks ago, but it seems appropriate here as well. This goes straight to the heart of the whole Peter = Rock issue, looked at from the perspectives of the Catholic, Protestant, and LDS view.
I understand your view that a universal apostasy is impossible, because Jesus told Peter, “upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18) This claim means that the Church organized by Jesus would never suffer apostasy and loss despite being predicted by several other NT writers. (Jesus trumps Paul, etc)
It is not surprising that this issue revolves around how one interprets Jesus’ remark. There are several options, the key to understanding the passage, however, is figuring out what the final “it” refers to. Does it refer to “the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church,” or does it refer to “the gates of hell shall not prevail against this rock?” If it refers to the “rock,” then one must describe what “the rock” refers to.
Catholic perspective
The Catholic church, of course, thinks that “this rock” is literally Peter, and have based their claims to apostolic succession on the unbroken succession of bishops of Rome back to Peter. Other churches must necessarily define a different meaning, because they cannot claim apostolic succession in this way.
Churches (such as the Protestants) who believe that the Church of Rome is somehow flawed or in apostasy from the pure truth must adopt a different reading:
Protestant perspective
Protestant readers have generally interpreted “the rock” to refer to the Christian Church. Under this reading, Jesus is promising that the church will never be entirely overcome by death and/or the forces of Satan.
Latter-day Saint perspective
Latter-day Saints have generally read this verse as referring to the only true, unmovable rock that exists—revelation from God. That is the rock upon which any Church must be built, and it is evidenced by the verses just before this one. In Matt. 16:13-17, the subject is literally revelation given to Peter as to who Jesus Christ really is. This knowledge came by revelation from God (Matt. 16:17), and Christ taught Peter that this revelation is the rock upon which He would build His Church.
Both the Protestant and Catholic versions must contend with the fact that other Biblical authors taught an inevitable apostasy. It would seem strange for such Biblical authors, including Peter, to teach something which Jesus here denies.
One must also notice that gates only prevail against something that is already inside of them; they cannot prevail against something that is external to those gates. Was Christ saying that His Church was already inside the gates of hell, and needed to come out? Or was He saying, in His normal “hidden teaching” manner, that His Church would one day be dead (i.e., in apostasy), held back by the gates of hell, and that it was revelation—the rock—that would free it from those gates?
This reading of Matthew 16 reconciles all the other biblical reference to the apostasy, and agrees with the interpretation given by Joseph Smith.
Here are some other biblical references pointing to an apostasy.
Thesselonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Amos 8: 11-12 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Isaiah 60: 2-3 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Isaiah 24: 5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the cordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore thebinhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
And here are many more snipped to save time and space. I would recommend reading them in their entirety.
Isa. 24: 5 changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Isa. 29: 13 this people draw near me with their mouth.
Isa. 60: 2 darkness shall cover the earth.
Amos 8: 11 a famine . . . of hearing the words of the Lord.
Matt. 13: 25 his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat.
Matt. 24: 5 saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many.
Matt. 24: 24 shall arise false Christs, and false prophets.
John 6: 66 his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Acts 20: 29 shall grievous wolves enter in among you.
1 Cor. 11: 18 there be divisions among you.
Gal. 1: 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him.
Gal. 3: 1 who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey.
2 Thes. 2: 3 shall not come, except there come a falling away first.
1 Tim. 1: 6 some having swerved have turned aside.
1 Tim. 4: 1 giving heed to seducing spirits.
2 Tim. 1: 15 all they which are in Asia be turned away from me.
2 Tim. 2: 18 Who concerning the truth have erred.
2 Tim. 3: 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power.
2 Tim. 4: 4 turn away their ears from the truth . . . unto fables.
Titus 1: 16 profess that they know God, but in works they deny him.
James 4: 1 From whence came wars and fightings among you.
2 Pet. 2: 1 false prophets also among the people.
2 Pet. 3: 17 being led away with the error of the wicked.
1 Jn. 2: 18 now are there many antichrists.
1 Jn. 4: 1 many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Jude 1: 4 certain men crept in . . . denying the only Lord God.
Rev. 2: 2 which say they are apostles, and are not.
Rev. 3: 16 thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot.
Rev. 13: 7 to make war with the saints.
Good reply, Sevenbak. I learned several new things. Thanks.
Thanks. I had to snort at your tagline BTW. ;-)
A good joke always has a grain of truth.
At the very least, a mustard seed.
1Ki 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, [even] I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left [me] seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
*****
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
At noi time has God ever been without believers on the earth.
Here’s a good read on the subject. This is a wikipedia article on the great apostasy. It’s not about the LDS perspective, although, the LDS view is also included.
****Agreed. There has always been believers, at least in what they knew to be true. Those who live and obey the laws as they know them to be right and true are indeed true believers. Good point.****
But wait! Mormons claim the New World Nephites were killed off and the Old World Christians went into apostacy.
So if there have always been believers then the Holy Spirit was still with them and there was no need of a “restoration” of the gospel.
As Jesus said, Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
So he never left us after all. You are again caught on the horns of a delima.
The Book of Abraham video.
You'll have to ask don carlos, for I've forgotten.
It must have been on target though; to get pulled!
>>And all the Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, Daoists, Shinto, etc. all stand up and say the same thing. There are certainly more of each of these religions who claim to have a divine revelation. So how are we to judge your witness?
>Popcorn placemarker ... you seem to have closed some mouths!
Looks like it was successfully avoided as a topic. I guess I have to judge the LDS the same way I have to judge the Watchtower Society. Scripture alone, and it finds them both wanting, and badly.
And; they'd LOVE to do the same to the rest of us ANTI's on FR if they could get away with it!!!
Just WHY hasn't the BIGOT and HATER words they hurl toward us, never stuck to the wall???
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