Selected and contrived? I gave you just a few words from each reference, read the references in their entire context, they are even more clear than just the snippet I gave you. Actually, at the end of this post, I'll give you the compete reference on some more, and additional references on this topic as well.
Also, you may find this of interest. I posted this a few weeks ago, but it seems appropriate here as well. This goes straight to the heart of the whole Peter = Rock issue, looked at from the perspectives of the Catholic, Protestant, and LDS view.
I understand your view that a universal apostasy is impossible, because Jesus told Peter, “upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18) This claim means that the Church organized by Jesus would never suffer apostasy and loss despite being predicted by several other NT writers. (Jesus trumps Paul, etc)
It is not surprising that this issue revolves around how one interprets Jesus’ remark. There are several options, the key to understanding the passage, however, is figuring out what the final “it” refers to. Does it refer to “the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church,” or does it refer to “the gates of hell shall not prevail against this rock?” If it refers to the “rock,” then one must describe what “the rock” refers to.
Catholic perspective
The Catholic church, of course, thinks that “this rock” is literally Peter, and have based their claims to apostolic succession on the unbroken succession of bishops of Rome back to Peter. Other churches must necessarily define a different meaning, because they cannot claim apostolic succession in this way.
Churches (such as the Protestants) who believe that the Church of Rome is somehow flawed or in apostasy from the pure truth must adopt a different reading:
Protestant perspective
Protestant readers have generally interpreted “the rock” to refer to the Christian Church. Under this reading, Jesus is promising that the church will never be entirely overcome by death and/or the forces of Satan.
Latter-day Saint perspective
Latter-day Saints have generally read this verse as referring to the only true, unmovable rock that exists—revelation from God. That is the rock upon which any Church must be built, and it is evidenced by the verses just before this one. In Matt. 16:13-17, the subject is literally revelation given to Peter as to who Jesus Christ really is. This knowledge came by revelation from God (Matt. 16:17), and Christ taught Peter that this revelation is the rock upon which He would build His Church.
Both the Protestant and Catholic versions must contend with the fact that other Biblical authors taught an inevitable apostasy. It would seem strange for such Biblical authors, including Peter, to teach something which Jesus here denies.
One must also notice that gates only prevail against something that is already inside of them; they cannot prevail against something that is external to those gates. Was Christ saying that His Church was already inside the gates of hell, and needed to come out? Or was He saying, in His normal “hidden teaching” manner, that His Church would one day be dead (i.e., in apostasy), held back by the gates of hell, and that it was revelation—the rock—that would free it from those gates?
This reading of Matthew 16 reconciles all the other biblical reference to the apostasy, and agrees with the interpretation given by Joseph Smith.
Here are some other biblical references pointing to an apostasy.
Thesselonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Amos 8: 11-12 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Isaiah 60: 2-3 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Isaiah 24: 5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the cordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore thebinhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
And here are many more snipped to save time and space. I would recommend reading them in their entirety.
Isa. 24: 5 changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Isa. 29: 13 this people draw near me with their mouth.
Isa. 60: 2 darkness shall cover the earth.
Amos 8: 11 a famine . . . of hearing the words of the Lord.
Matt. 13: 25 his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat.
Matt. 24: 5 saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many.
Matt. 24: 24 shall arise false Christs, and false prophets.
John 6: 66 his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Acts 20: 29 shall grievous wolves enter in among you.
1 Cor. 11: 18 there be divisions among you.
Gal. 1: 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him.
Gal. 3: 1 who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey.
2 Thes. 2: 3 shall not come, except there come a falling away first.
1 Tim. 1: 6 some having swerved have turned aside.
1 Tim. 4: 1 giving heed to seducing spirits.
2 Tim. 1: 15 all they which are in Asia be turned away from me.
2 Tim. 2: 18 Who concerning the truth have erred.
2 Tim. 3: 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power.
2 Tim. 4: 4 turn away their ears from the truth . . . unto fables.
Titus 1: 16 profess that they know God, but in works they deny him.
James 4: 1 From whence came wars and fightings among you.
2 Pet. 2: 1 false prophets also among the people.
2 Pet. 3: 17 being led away with the error of the wicked.
1 Jn. 2: 18 now are there many antichrists.
1 Jn. 4: 1 many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Jude 1: 4 certain men crept in . . . denying the only Lord God.
Rev. 2: 2 which say they are apostles, and are not.
Rev. 3: 16 thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot.
Rev. 13: 7 to make war with the saints.
Good reply, Sevenbak. I learned several new things. Thanks.
1Ki 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, [even] I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left [me] seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
*****
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
At noi time has God ever been without believers on the earth.
Both the Protestant and Catholic versions must contend with the fact that other Biblical authors taught an inevitable apostasy. It would seem strange for such Biblical authors, including Peter, to teach something which Jesus here denies. [Sevenbak]
”Inevitable” doesn’t equal a totalitarian apostasy, now does it? Jesus denied that Satan would completely overtake His church (“prevail”); He never denied that the Church wasn’t threatened by both Satan & apostasy. (In fact, he mentions plenty of sweeping risks for the church in the last days in Matthew 24).
I understand your view that a universal apostasy is impossible, because Jesus told Peter, “upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18) This claim means that the Church organized by Jesus would never suffer apostasy and loss despite being predicted by several other NT writers. (Jesus trumps Paul, etc)
It means no such thing (this claim means that the Church…would never suffer apostasy). Seven, if you were to prophesy to me that some of my adult kids would leave the faith, and if I then said to you that I stick to my earlier prophesy that the gates of hell would not prevail against the C family, those are NOT mutually exclusive claims. (Both prophesies could happen; or neither prophesies could wind up being true…but me prophesying that the gates of hell would not prevail against the C family doesn’t rule out the possibility of spiritual warfare family attrition.)
You’ve introduced a straw man. Mormons seem to have HUGE problems delineating between the qualifiers of “partial” and “complete”—between “localized” and “universal.” (What? When your Mom told you that you could have a “piece” of pie, you ate the whole thing because you thought "piece" = devouring its entirety?)
Why is it that LDS have to conclude that apostasy is ALWAYS an all-or-nothing interpretation? (Just like your above comment, where you wrongly conclude that just because someone observes no complete apostasy takes place, it renders Paul’s claims as suspect). The Scriptures you “snipped,” which are the third such almost exact Bible list I’ve seen sourced by a Mormon in FReeper threads & FReepmails (Nowandlater did the same thing last May), don’t even pretend to describe a total, complete or universal apostasy [see below where I answer them verse-for-verse].
This reading of Matthew 16 [the interpretation you gave] reconciles all the other biblical reference to the apostasy, and agrees with the interpretation given by Joseph Smith.
Listen, whatever church Jesus Christ said he was building there, it wasn't going to be a shabby structure, which the LDS directly accuse Jesus of building. It wasn't going to "go to pot" in 300+ or even 1800 years, like the LDS commonly accuse Jesus of doing. In fact, the force of the future tense from this passage depicts a mighty, strong church--and one so sustained by an Almighty, strong Christ who PROMISED to be ALWAYS present (Matt. 28:20)—along with an always-present Holy Ghost (John 14:16) . In fact, Rev. 20:8-9 says this Church will never be overthrown.
This claim means that the Church organized by Jesus would never suffer apostasy and loss despite being predicted by several other NT writers. (Jesus trumps Paul, etc)
I address all of Paul’s verses you cited further below, but let’s just look at two of them to address head-on what you claim here:
LDS essentially label Paul as a “false prophet” when he told the Ephesians: "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." (Eph. 3:21)
Any Lds here care to point out exactly how it is that Paul falsely prophesied by mentioning which "age" that the church failed to bring glory to God? (Wanna go on record & be exact if you’re going to make such a slanderous accusation of the apostle?) How can there "be glory in the church...throughout ALL ages" if it's a total apostasy? Ya wanna speculate exactly what glory was brought to God by the church in the years 400 to 1800 if the current writers defaming the entire Christian church are right?
Furthermore, LDS label the Holy Ghost also a liar when the Spirit prophesied that the apostasy would be partial: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, thqt in the latter times SOME shall depart from the faith..." (1 Tim. 4:1) [What? Are you claiming the Holy Ghost had trouble with his long-term vision when He communicated what He did to Paul?)
Tell me, why is that the Holy Ghost speaks so "expressly" about this matter in 1 Timothy 4:1, yet LDS are so hostile to what He has to say?
One must also notice that gates only prevail against something that is already inside of them; they cannot prevail against something that is external to those gates. Was Christ saying that His Church was already inside the gates of hell, and needed to come out? Or was He saying, in His normal “hidden teaching” manner, that His Church would one day be dead (i.e., in apostasy), held back by the gates of hell, and that it was revelation—the rock—that would free it from those gates?
No, when it came to pronouncements about “death” He was farely forthright (for example, his own suffering & death). Besides, LDS, just like claiming that Jesus wasn’t directly prayed to or fully worshiped in their own Book of Mormon (which is an outright lie), are also disengenous about a complete apostasy just looking at their own Scriptures:
(1) Three Nephite disciples are supposedly still alive, wandering around the earth somewhere, tarrying until Christ returns (3 Nephi 28:6-32). Sevenbak, you yourself are being disengenous when you claim that His Church would one day be dead when Book of Mormon adherents have to acknowledge 3 Nephi 28.
(2) The same thing applies to the apostle John. Mormonism is unique in claiming that John, like those three disciples, is also alive & well & tarrying until Christ returns (D&C 7). Since you’ve gone out on a very weak limb with your post, you need to answer how it is the church can be both completely dead and not completely dead at the same time? What? John didn’t have any authority? (Give me a break)
(3) Notice also how the LDS church tends to play down linking passages together like Doctrine & Covenants 84:17-18, which says the priesthood would be one continuous priesthood and in D&C 86:8 it says it continued thru the lineage of fathers.
It is not surprising that this issue revolves around how one interprets Jesus’ remark.
Well, based upon your inability to interpret the Scriptures
Here are some other biblical references pointing to an apostasy. [You cited in your first grouping of Scriptures: 2 Th. 2:2-3; Amos 8:11-12; Is. 60:2-3; 24:5]
2 Thessalonians 2:2-3…the day of Christ is at hand…that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first
Are you claiming, then, that the apostle John and those 3 Nephite disciples from 3 Nephi 28 fell away if the “falling” was total? (No? Yes?)
Amos 8: 11-12 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
What? (Now you’re claiming the Bible totally disappeared from the earth, too?)
Isaiah 60: 2-3 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
This passage twice references a “rising”…hmm…sounds like prophetic resurrection language re: Jesus rising to me. And sure enough, the Good Friday account speaks of an afternoon darkness. Notice the order: Darkness first, then a “rising” of “his glory.” (Not Jesus rising first, then a darkness)
Isaiah 24: 5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the cordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore thebinhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
Did you happen to notice those last three words? (few men left). Few men left of what? (Habitants of earth, it says in v. 6). Beyond that, you should quote it in context starting with v. 1, where it says the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste…and scattered abroad the inhabitants thereof. In v. 4, it says The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth an dfadeth away… (Clearly Isaiah is talking about the entirety of the earth and all its inhabitants, not just God’s people in the church) [Talk about a pathetic attempt to indict the historic Church!]
BTW, I notice in LDS lists it "conveniently" skips over the OT passage of Daniel 2:44 (And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed...it will stand for ever.") and the NT passage of Hebrews 12:28 (Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved...). God's Kingdom delivered will stand for ever...it can't be shaken.
Then you went on and added the normal lineup of passages on “apostasy” in the LDS KJV or Quad. You said: I would recommend reading them in their entirety. [Yeah, well so would I, and I think next time before you give that recommendation you ought to practice what you preach…because if you did, you would stop giving out most or all of the passages you cite as a supposed undergirding for a universal apostasy…here’s what I mean]:
Matt. 13: 25 his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat. Look again at Matthew 13. Jesus talks about several groups of people here. Are some these groups unfaithful & fall away? (Yes) Do ALL of them (no). Therefore this passage doesn’t apply to a TOTAL apostasy...stop using as such.
Matt. 24: 5 saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many.
OK, do you know the difference between the words “many” and “all?”
Matt. 24: 24 shall arise false Christs, and false prophets.
Yes, so? It doesn’t say all of the prophets at that point will be “false” ones, does it?
John 6: 66 his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Again, you take one verse and then stop there. Jesus then asked his close disciples if they ALSO were going to leave. How did Peter respond? “Lord to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.” The close disciples did NOT apostacize. Stop using this verse to describe a total one.
Acts 20: 29 shall grievous wolves enter in among you.
I agree with this passage. Where does it say that these wolves would devour everyone in sight?
Gal. 1: 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him. Gal. 3:1 who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey.
Please read all of Galatians 3. It's the LDS church that has done what the Galatians were doing, turning the good news of the gospel into a vast system of works, deeds, command-keeping, ritual-keeping of the flesh, etc: "v. 3, 5-6, 10: "Are you so foolish? After beginning w/the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?..Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? Consider Abraham: 'He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'...'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law.'"
1 Tim. 1: 6 some having swerved have turned aside.
You keep making my point: “Some”
1 Tim. 4: 1 giving heed to seducing spirits.
Hey, I cited this. And this verse says "some"--which you left out. (Wanna explain why ALL LDS always leave out "some" when summarizing this verse? Not you, but intentional deception on the part of the originator of this list?)
2 Tim. 1: 15 all they which are in Asia be turned away from me.
NIV says "province of Asia" and they "deserted" the apostle Paul...so everyone who aschewed some of the things McConkie wrote when he was LDS "apostle" (including LDS general authorities who had heartburn with much of what was included in the unapproved "Mormon Doctrine") is an apostate? Even if we say, "Yes, they all apostacized" this was provincial apostasy.
2 Tim. 2: 18 Who concerning the truth have erred.
Nice try. Read the context: vv. 16-17 says who the "Who" are: Specifically it is Hymenaeus and Philetus who are among a group of "godless chatterers"...so from that you extract that ALL Christian churches have such leaders?
2 Tim. 3: 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power.
2 Tim. 3:1-2 says this is true of "last days...people." These "people" inhabit every structure: Homes, offices, churches of every stripe. But that doesn't mean they are primarily concentrated in Christian churches, now does it? You're not repeating the error of JoeSmith and offending all of us by applying this to being overly unbalanced re: our churches, are you?
2 Tim. 4: 4 turn away their ears from the truth . . . unto fables.
OK. At least here you finally hit upon a serious widespread prob in the church. The prob, tho, is "id'd" in v. 3: "men will not put up w/sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great # of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." The main problem id'd here is grassroots' "itching ears" and not top-down authoritative creedal problems.
Titus 1: 16 profess that they know God, but in works they deny him.
OK. Stop taking things out of context. V. 15 specifically says this is talking about unbelievers.
James 4: 1 From whence came wars and fightings among you.
Are you a witness describing my family? :) Anyway, the bickerings of families alone are enough for you to label every family as "apostates."
2 Pet. 2:1 false prophets also among the people.
Please stop taking things out of context. Read v. 2: "Many will follow their shameful ways..." "Many!" (All? Not even close)
2 Pet. 3: 17 being led away with the error of the wicked.
Lawless men are always out to "carry us away." So? Despite that reality, what was Peter's confidence in those he wrote? v.18: "But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
1 Jn. 2: 18 now are there many antichrists.
So? The churches are filled to the pew brim w/antichrists?
1 Jn. 4: 1 many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Always more room for "average Joes"
Jude 1: 4 certain men crept in . . . denying the only Lord God.
"Certain men"--not "all"
Rev. 2: 2 which say they are apostles, and are not.
Rev. 2:2 speaks positively of the church @ Ephesus for the fact that they tested these false prophets...they sifted them and found they weren't so. In other words, the church @ Ephesus was "noble" according to Acts 17:11-12. BTW, if Paul says "First are apostles, second prophets..." why again has the LDS church reversed it to "first prophets and second apostles?"
Rev. 3: 16 thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot.
OK. This was written to One of the churches in Revelation. How many were there again? (Same as your moniker, 7). So you've hit the mark w/ approximately 14.3% of churches.
Rev. 13: 7 to make war with the saints.
OK. Nobody disagrees that there are real "saints" opposed by the devil. It says nothing that the reality of false "saints."
I will say it here loud and clear: Any Mormon who believes that every and all other members of different churches are automatically and inherently apostates of the faith, are liars and proclaimers of a false gospel.