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To: the_conscience
Justification before God involves no amount of works and is strictly by the instrument of faith based on the perfect righteousness of Christ.

You appear to be suggesting that Jesus didn't mean it when He said, I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matt. 12:36-37)

And you're perhaps suggesting also that Jesus didn't really mean it at the end of the Parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, when He said of the tax collector who approached in repentance, I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted." (Luke 18:14)

Jesus makes quite clear throughout the Gospels that, although God alone can grant eternal life, we nevertheless bear some responsibility for how we will be judged. Jesus says many times, in various ways, "you must do...." (The Sermon on the Mount is full of examples of this.)

And finally, consider the alternative: suppose we are in no way responsible for the way we are judged. It means that nothing we do matters -- and it means that there's no such thing as sin, the entire Bible notwithstanding.

What generally happens at this point, is one of your group attempts to engage in a Scripture contest. I give one example, you give a counter-example, and it goes back and forth, both sides quoting passages to support their position. But of course, the fact that one can have a Scripture contest at all, shows the weakness of your position: you're left having to explain why all of those statements of Jesus don't really mean what a plain reading would suggest.

The more defensible position of is simply to acknowledge that God is sovereign, and we are responsible; and simply accept that what's in the middle is a mystery.

In any case, we must always behave as if what we do matters. Otherwise ... well, I think you can fill that one in for yourself.

869 posted on 01/31/2008 7:26:55 PM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb; the_conscience
Jesus makes quite clear throughout the Gospels that, although God alone can grant eternal life, we nevertheless bear some responsibility for how we will be judged. Jesus says many times, in various ways, "you must do...." (The Sermon on the Mount is full of examples of this

The Beatitudes are clearly works-based salvational promise. Not even faith is involved. It's all mitzvah.

Does not Chirst say to the rich man to sell everything he has and follow Him? Where does Jesus of the Gospels teach Deformed Pauline theology of the Reformers that we are saved by grace alone? Where does the Old Testament teach that?

876 posted on 01/31/2008 7:59:22 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: r9etb
The more defensible position of is simply to acknowledge that God is sovereign, and we are responsible; and simply accept that what's in the middle is a mystery. In any case, we must always behave as if what we do matters.

"Pray as if everything depended on God. Work as if everything depended on you." -- Mother Teresa of Calcutta.

;-)

877 posted on 01/31/2008 8:02:25 PM PST by Campion
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To: r9etb

Neither of your Scripture verses defeats my proposition. Both verses can be read with the faith proposition, in the first case the context actually proves my point that true faith has “fruits” that prove a man’s gratitude. In the second case, a humble man is one who does not take account of his worthiness, who does not exalt himself with some action he may have performed. This is the definition of faith. It that looks outside itself for justification.

I’m afraid that the rest of your post reads like a liberal Christian textbook. The problem your having is that you are taking isolated texts of Scripture and putting together some conclusion without considering the over-arching story.


879 posted on 01/31/2008 8:03:07 PM PST by the_conscience (McCain/Thompson 08)
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