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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper

***I am glad we agree there is no atonement after death. But notice the very verses you post, namely “and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

In other words, salvation is yet to come to those who persevere. We only know that God will save those who do until the end, but we will keep our end of the “bargain.” We can turn away from God at any time through sin and in doing so be lost. Those who stay faithful until the end (and that means repentant even though they will be sinful) will be saved. Those who fall away will not.***

Nicely put.

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm has this to say about perseverence:

Free will can resist and reject God’s grace :

“You stiff-necked people...you always resist the Holy Spirit” (Acts 7:51). The angels possessed grace and perfectly intact intellect, and yet many of them freely sinned and rejected God. Adam and Eve possessed grace and a perfectly intact nature, and yet they freely sinned. How much more so is it possible for the born-again Christian, who possesses grace but also a wounded nature and a darkened intellect, to sin also. Paul mentions sins which keep a man from the Kingdom of God: fornication, adultery, homosexuality, theft, greed, and so on (1 Cor 6:9-10).

When Jesus was expressly asked what one must do to gain eternal life, he answered, “keep the commandments,” and went on to list the moral commandments of the Decalogue (Matt 19:16-21). Revelation describes those whose lot is the burning pool of fire and sulfur, the second death: “cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste” and so on (Rev 21:8). Aren’t born-again Christians capable of these sins? And if they die in these sins, how can they possibly inherit heaven? If Adam and Eve could fall from grace, surely we can fall from grace as well. Surely we can harden our hearts and resist the Holy Spirit.

***The Bible teaches throughout the same theme: repent and your sins shall be forgiven, relegated to divine oblivion. Christ’s sacrifice is powerful indeed, as you say, but He shed His blood only for some even though God would desire all men to be saved. That’s because some will repent, and some won’t. So, while His sacrifice certainly is good enough for the whole world, only some of the world will repent and be forgiven.***

ibid

SUMMARY OF CATHOLIC TEACHING

1. God knows all things, including those who will be saved (THE ELECT). 2. God’s foreknowledge does not destroy, but includes, free will. 3. God desires all men to be saved. 4. Jesus died to redeem all men. 5. God provides sufficient grace for all men to be saved. 6. Man, in the exercise of his free will, can accept or reject grace. 7. Those who accept grace are saved, or born-again. 8. Those who are born-again can fall away or fall into sin. 9. Not everyone who is saved will persevere in grace. 10. Those who do persevere are God’s elect. 11. Those who do not persevere, or who never accepted grace, are the reprobate. 12. Since we can always reject God in this life, we have no absolute assurance that we will persevere. 13. We can have a moral assurance of salvation if we maintain faith and keep God’s commandments (1 John 2:1-6; 3:19-23; 5:1-3,13).

***The reformed theology says that we must repent because God predestined us to repent. What Orthodox theology says is that we repent because Christ made it possible to (i.e. we can) repent.***

All Catholic theology. God does not drag people into Heaven; neither does He hijack them and give them Stockholm Syndrome. Love is free and unconditional or it doesn’t exist. Jesus is love and mercy; the Reformed God isn’t, at least according to the WCF.


6,417 posted on 07/09/2008 3:43:58 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights
Free will can resist and reject God’s grace : “You stiff-necked people...you always resist the Holy Spirit” (Acts 7:51).

The doctrine of irresistible grace has to do only with salvational grace, the grace that changes the heart. If we had free will with regard to salvational grace, then no one would ever be saved, OR, we would have reason to boast.

If Adam and Eve could fall from grace, surely we can fall from grace as well.

Apples and oranges. You can't compare when the starting positions were so opposite.

Love is free and unconditional or it doesn’t exist. Jesus is love and mercy; the Reformed God isn’t, at least according to the WCF.

If you would say this then you must have hatred for the Reformed God. Perhaps this is evidence of your efforts to be like the Catholic Christ? :)

6,441 posted on 07/10/2008 4:03:17 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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