I am glad we agree there is no atonement after death. But notice the very verses you post, namely "and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."
In other words, salvation is yet to come to those who persevere. We only know that God will save those who do until the end, but we will keep our end of the "bargain." We can turn away from God at any time through sin and in doing so be lost. Those who stay faithful until the end (and that means repentant even though they will be sinful) will be saved. Those who fall away will not.
Protestantism/Baptism makes a fundamental error here in assuming that the moment you accept Christ you cannot fall away, and that you have a "free ride" from there on. That's not what the Bible tells us.
This is also where Luther's pecca fortiter error comes in: you cannot be faithful and continue to sin boldly. Those who give in to sin boldly have forsaken Christ.
Only Christ can make the payment for us and He DOES! But that doesn't mean that we won't also receive temporal punishments for sin during life on earth
The Bible teaches throughout the same theme: repent and your sins shall be forgiven, relegated to divine oblivion. Christ's sacrifice is powerful indeed, as you say, but He shed His blood only for some even though God would desire all men to be saved. That's because some will repent, and some won't. So, while His sacrifice certainly is good enough for the whole world, only some of the world will repent and be forgiven.
And remember that the Lord's Prayer tells us to forgive before we can ask for forgiveness. We must not have grudges, anger or hate, no matter how Christian we may think we may be.
As Dr. E. said so well, BECAUSE He atoned for us we can repent.
That's correct. The operant word is can. He made it possible for us to do so. Some choose not to, however, and they will not be atoned.
Kosta: The regenerated man still sins. But the regenerated man will also repent of his sins, not in order to buy his way into heaven but because he regrets having turned away from God, because he places God first and all the wordily things second, because He loves God and doesn't wish to sin against Him.
FK: Isn't that what I JUST said??? :)
When? From what I know of the Reformed theology, no. The reformed theology says that we must repent because God predestined us to repent. What Orthodox theology says is that we repent because Christ made it possible to (i.e. we can) repent.
***I am glad we agree there is no atonement after death. But notice the very verses you post, namely “and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”
In other words, salvation is yet to come to those who persevere. We only know that God will save those who do until the end, but we will keep our end of the “bargain.” We can turn away from God at any time through sin and in doing so be lost. Those who stay faithful until the end (and that means repentant even though they will be sinful) will be saved. Those who fall away will not.***
Nicely put.
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm has this to say about perseverence:
Free will can resist and reject God’s grace :
“You stiff-necked people...you always resist the Holy Spirit” (Acts 7:51). The angels possessed grace and perfectly intact intellect, and yet many of them freely sinned and rejected God. Adam and Eve possessed grace and a perfectly intact nature, and yet they freely sinned. How much more so is it possible for the born-again Christian, who possesses grace but also a wounded nature and a darkened intellect, to sin also. Paul mentions sins which keep a man from the Kingdom of God: fornication, adultery, homosexuality, theft, greed, and so on (1 Cor 6:9-10).
When Jesus was expressly asked what one must do to gain eternal life, he answered, “keep the commandments,” and went on to list the moral commandments of the Decalogue (Matt 19:16-21). Revelation describes those whose lot is the burning pool of fire and sulfur, the second death: “cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste” and so on (Rev 21:8). Aren’t born-again Christians capable of these sins? And if they die in these sins, how can they possibly inherit heaven? If Adam and Eve could fall from grace, surely we can fall from grace as well. Surely we can harden our hearts and resist the Holy Spirit.
***The Bible teaches throughout the same theme: repent and your sins shall be forgiven, relegated to divine oblivion. Christ’s sacrifice is powerful indeed, as you say, but He shed His blood only for some even though God would desire all men to be saved. That’s because some will repent, and some won’t. So, while His sacrifice certainly is good enough for the whole world, only some of the world will repent and be forgiven.***
ibid
SUMMARY OF CATHOLIC TEACHING
1. God knows all things, including those who will be saved (THE ELECT). 2. God’s foreknowledge does not destroy, but includes, free will. 3. God desires all men to be saved. 4. Jesus died to redeem all men. 5. God provides sufficient grace for all men to be saved. 6. Man, in the exercise of his free will, can accept or reject grace. 7. Those who accept grace are saved, or born-again. 8. Those who are born-again can fall away or fall into sin. 9. Not everyone who is saved will persevere in grace. 10. Those who do persevere are God’s elect. 11. Those who do not persevere, or who never accepted grace, are the reprobate. 12. Since we can always reject God in this life, we have no absolute assurance that we will persevere. 13. We can have a moral assurance of salvation if we maintain faith and keep God’s commandments (1 John 2:1-6; 3:19-23; 5:1-3,13).
***The reformed theology says that we must repent because God predestined us to repent. What Orthodox theology says is that we repent because Christ made it possible to (i.e. we can) repent.***
All Catholic theology. God does not drag people into Heaven; neither does He hijack them and give them Stockholm Syndrome. Love is free and unconditional or it doesn’t exist. Jesus is love and mercy; the Reformed God isn’t, at least according to the WCF.
I understand why believing The Gospel is so hard for the EO and RC's. If you did believe it the power of your Churches disappears. However, it doesn't make it any less true.
Yes we are to persevere to the end, but if you think you have the free will to do that you are wrong.
Matt. 24: 12-13 And because lawlessness will abound the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Phil. 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
It is all of God. God saves us. God indwells us to preserve us to the end. God will not abandon those that are His.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
Hebrews 13:5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said I will never leave you nor forsake you.
So yes, once you are saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ you will not be lost. The Holy Spirit will indwell you and never leave you. Unless of course your saying your church is stronger than Jesus Christ.
John 10:27-28 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Sure, one perfectly good Biblical use of the concept of "saved" is the "eternal glory" use. Nothing controversial there. I have identified four uses of that concept from the Bible on this thread (foundations, cross, belief, and glory).
We can turn away from God at any time through sin and in doing so be lost. Those who stay faithful until the end (and that means repentant even though they will be sinful) will be saved. Those who fall away will not.
Those who "fall away" PERMANENTLY were never "there" to fall away from in the first place. The Bible says none of the elect fall away permanently. Christ loses ZERO of His sheep.
Protestantism/Baptism makes a fundamental error here in assuming that the moment you accept Christ you cannot fall away, and that you have a "free ride" from there on. That's not what the Bible tells us.
As WM posted, if God is good for His word, and we think He is, then a true believer cannot fall away permanently. That's just the way God made it. In addition, Paul teaches against any notion of "free ride", and we are the ones quoting it to you. What does it take for us to convince you that we don't believe that? WE ARE QUOTING THE BIBLE TO YOU! :)
This is also where Luther's pecca fortiter error comes in: you cannot be faithful and continue to sin boldly. Those who give in to sin boldly have forsaken Christ.
This is also where your misunderstanding of what Luther was saying comes in. Luther never taught what you are saying above.
The Bible teaches throughout the same theme: repent and your sins shall be forgiven, relegated to divine oblivion. Christ's sacrifice is powerful indeed, as you say, but He shed His blood only for some even though God would desire all men to be saved. That's because some will repent, and some won't. So, while His sacrifice certainly is good enough for the whole world, only some of the world will repent and be forgiven.
That sounds positively Reformed. Well said my good man. :)
The reformed theology says that we must repent because God predestined us to repent. What Orthodox theology says is that we repent because Christ made it possible to (i.e. we can) repent.
My original comment and your response both mentioned the regenerate man not wanting to sin like he used to, instead his general disposition would be one of wanting to please God. I thought THAT'S what you were talking about. And your above is fair enough. We say Christ went way beyond the possible and actually DID it.