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To: annalex; MarkBsnr; jo kus; kosta50; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; wmfights; ...
FK: "Does God really look at the act itself, rather than the heart behind it?"

Of course God looks at the heart. I was assuming that the hypothetical atheist helps a lady across the street out of a genuine love for her as a fellow human. If he (or a Christian, or anyone else) does it for some ulterior motive, then, of course, not.

So would it be true in Catholicism that if an atheist helps the old lady because "of a genuine love for her as a fellow human" and a Christian helps the old lady because of his love for God, that those two acts would count the same in God's eyes in terms of what is good and pleasing to God?

It is not true that we are never transformed by the faith, and it is demonstrably not true that even the devout sin regularly.

Of course we are transformed by faith, that is the Reformed position. But, you say that even the devout don't sin regularly???? That is very surprising to me. It's funny because when I hear one person say that he only sins once in a while, and another person say that he sins all the time but by the grace of God he is forgiven, I know which one is devout. :)

One of the reasons to venerate saints is to take courage of their example, because with them the sanctification has run a complete course.

And Saints are created in Heaven by a vote of the Magisterium on earth? I mean, to me it is a huge presumption to declare the salvation status of another as a fact. The Bible actually specifically warns us NOT to do that, but the Church does it all the time.

4,924 posted on 04/15/2008 5:03:28 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; jo kus; kosta50; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; ...
if an atheist helps the old lady because "of a genuine love for her as a fellow human" and a Christian helps the old lady because of his love for God, that those two acts would count the same in God's eyes in terms of what is good and pleasing to God?

Both are doing precisely the same thing because love of neighbor is love of God and love of God is love of neighbor. (I am not saying that the neighbor is God, merely that one expression of love and the other expression of love are different expressions of the same Christian obligation). The difference is that the atheist doesn't know why is he doing the good works and the believer does. One could speculate that the atheist is more pleasing because he has a greater distance to cover before he can embrace God, -- he is a lost sheep that brings the pastor a greater joy.

ven the devout don't sin regularly????

Can't speak for everyone, but usually the sensitivity to sin grows (hence frequent confessions) while the gravity of sins declines. The devout would daily confess the daily failing to help EVERY lady across EVERY street, while the beginner in faith would struggle with sexual impulses, lying, bouts of anger, or perhaps even criminal deeds, once a year.

Saints are created in Heaven by a vote of the Magisterium on earth?

Of course not. The early saints were simply venerated without asking anyone, woven into liturgies, iconized, prayed to, and the miracles they worked served as sufficient proof of sanctity. When the Church got better organized, a process and even strict criteria were established, that, if anything, resembles not a vote but a court trial (with the devil's advocate arguing why the proposed person is not a saint). That trial lasts decades and at times centuries. Whatever the outcome, a saint is mot "made" by the papal Congregation for the Causes of the Saints' decision, he is recognized as beyond doubt one sanctified by Christ. Miracles, martyrdom, and spontaneous veneration of the faithful are all factors in the recognition. After all, if no one prays to the proposed saint, there is no way he can work a miracle attributable to him.

4,935 posted on 04/15/2008 2:29:22 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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