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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; jo kus; kosta50; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; ...
if an atheist helps the old lady because "of a genuine love for her as a fellow human" and a Christian helps the old lady because of his love for God, that those two acts would count the same in God's eyes in terms of what is good and pleasing to God?

Both are doing precisely the same thing because love of neighbor is love of God and love of God is love of neighbor. (I am not saying that the neighbor is God, merely that one expression of love and the other expression of love are different expressions of the same Christian obligation). The difference is that the atheist doesn't know why is he doing the good works and the believer does. One could speculate that the atheist is more pleasing because he has a greater distance to cover before he can embrace God, -- he is a lost sheep that brings the pastor a greater joy.

ven the devout don't sin regularly????

Can't speak for everyone, but usually the sensitivity to sin grows (hence frequent confessions) while the gravity of sins declines. The devout would daily confess the daily failing to help EVERY lady across EVERY street, while the beginner in faith would struggle with sexual impulses, lying, bouts of anger, or perhaps even criminal deeds, once a year.

Saints are created in Heaven by a vote of the Magisterium on earth?

Of course not. The early saints were simply venerated without asking anyone, woven into liturgies, iconized, prayed to, and the miracles they worked served as sufficient proof of sanctity. When the Church got better organized, a process and even strict criteria were established, that, if anything, resembles not a vote but a court trial (with the devil's advocate arguing why the proposed person is not a saint). That trial lasts decades and at times centuries. Whatever the outcome, a saint is mot "made" by the papal Congregation for the Causes of the Saints' decision, he is recognized as beyond doubt one sanctified by Christ. Miracles, martyrdom, and spontaneous veneration of the faithful are all factors in the recognition. After all, if no one prays to the proposed saint, there is no way he can work a miracle attributable to him.

4,935 posted on 04/15/2008 2:29:22 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; jo kus; Kolokotronis; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
The early saints were simply venerated without asking anyone, woven into liturgies, iconized, prayed to, and the miracles they worked served as sufficient proof of sanctity

That's how the Orthodox saints are "made" to this day. One more example of Orthodoxy being the timless reflection of early Christianity.

4,936 posted on 04/15/2008 5:31:14 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: annalex; MarkBsnr; jo kus; kosta50; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; wmfights; ...
FK: "... if an atheist helps the old lady because "of a genuine love for her as a fellow human" and a Christian helps the old lady because of his love for God, that those two acts would count the same in God's eyes in terms of what is good and pleasing to God?"

Both are doing precisely the same thing because love of neighbor is love of God and love of God is love of neighbor. (I am not saying that the neighbor is God, merely that one expression of love and the other expression of love are different expressions of the same Christian obligation).

That's interesting. I didn't think one could love another in utter ignorance. Jesus said:

John 14:15 : "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

I suppose I do not see how it is possible for an atheist to "obey" God. I think a person must have an understanding of why he is doing what he is doing for it to count for obedience. In the military it would be "because my superior ordered me to". An atheist can't say that. To me, it's like because I am a Cardinals fan, whenever the Cardinals win they are "obeying" me personally. It just doesn't work like that. In order to truly obey, one must first have a command that he is aware of.

... Miracles, martyrdom, and spontaneous veneration of the faithful are all factors in the recognition. After all, if no one prays to the proposed saint, there is no way he can work a miracle attributable to him.

Oh, I don't think I understood that detail. So when we talk about the miracles of a proposed saint we are talking about those performed after he or she departed? I guess I assumed it would be for miracles performed during earthly life, like a healing. But if it is for miracles after departure, how can anyone miss? :)

4,991 posted on 04/19/2008 9:24:32 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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