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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis
To me "personal" means that which has a personality, distinguishable from others, has the ability to reason and love, and communicates with others

Then animals are "persons" as well.

I was unaware of any relative comparisons being made. I understood your position to be that God is impersonal, irrational, and unknowable, regardless of any other position. Could you restate your correct position without comparing it to anything else?

When did I state that God is irrational? His reasons are not our reasons any more than our reasons are reasons of an ant. To claim that God "makes sense" to us is to claim that we make sense to a flatworm, if that much. In order to reveal Himself fully to us lowly flatworms, He humbled Himself and became a flatworm so we could have a personal relationship with Him and know God through our eyes and ears and minds by seeing Him as one of us. Who can love an ineffable entity?

4,905 posted on 04/12/2008 12:08:59 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50
"When God the Almighty was making mankind through His own Word, He perceived that they, owing to the limitation of their nature, could not of themselves have any knowledge of their Artificer, the Incorporeal and Uncreated. He took pity on them, therefore, and did not leave them destitute of the knowledge of Himself, lest their very existence should prove purposeless. For of what use is existence to the creature if it cannot know its Maker? How could men be reasonable beings if they had no knowledge of the Word and Reason of the Father, through Whom they had received their being? They would be no better than the beasts, had they no knowledge save of earthly things; and why should God have made them at all, if He had not intended them to know Him? But, in fact, the good God has given them a share in His own Image, that is, in our Lord Jesus Christ, and has made even themselves after the same Image and Likeness. Why? Simply in order that through this gift of Godlikeness in themselves they may be able to perceive the Image Absolute, that is the Word Himself, and through Him to apprehend the Father; which knowledge of their Maker is for men the only really happy and blessed life."

+Athanasius the Great "On the Incarnation". FK, here's a link to chap. II of On the Incarnation:

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm#ch_2

Then read chapter III:

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm#ch_3

4,906 posted on 04/12/2008 1:27:19 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis
FK: "To me "personal" means that which has a personality, distinguishable from others, has the ability to reason and love, and communicates with others."

Then animals are "persons" as well.

No, the root word is "person", which excludes animals. I thought that much would be clear. :)

When did I state that God is irrational?

Many times, on this thread. But I didn't save them and am not inclined to go through 5,000 posts to find them. If you state that God is a rational Being now, I will take that henceforth. But if you do, then I don't see how you can continue to deny that God has a plan. Without a plan, i.e. without knowing what He wants to do within time, then His actions would be random, or, irrational.

His reasons are not our reasons any more than our reasons are reasons of an ant. To claim that God "makes sense" to us is to claim that we make sense to a flatworm, if that much.

OK, there it is. We were both right. What you really meant is that God is irrational TO US. A notion I completely disagree with, but I understand better where you are coming from.

He humbled Himself and became a flatworm so we could have a personal relationship with Him and know God through our eyes and ears and minds by seeing Him as one of us. Who can love an ineffable entity?

If that is all there is, then how do you explain that in the OT God spoke DIRECTLY and had real conversations with His prophets? Did all of those conversations never happen? ...... God reveals enough of Himself to us such that we are able to love Him.

4,968 posted on 04/18/2008 7:26:59 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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