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To: Forest Keeper; irishtenor; Alamo-Girl; wmfights; HarleyD; Manfred the Wonder Dawg; Quix; ...
Rome conveniently ignores the fact that some dichotomies are true. Salvation is all of God's grace, and none of men's merit.

It behooves the RCC to tell us we're splitting hairs because the RCC preaches synergy -- a melding of grace and good works. But Scripture clearly doesn't teach this. God alone saves the fallen sinner by His grace alone through faith alone in the sacrifice of His Son alone whose righteousness is imputed to us through the Holy Spirit alone.

Rome would have us believe we are too strict, "too extreme" in our reading of Scripture, when the truth is that Rome doesn't bother very much with Scripture and instead turns to its magisterium for guidance.

Monergism means exactly what the Bible says -- saved by grace through faith...alone.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:8-10

Of course this perspective takes the power of salvation away from men and magisteriums and returns it to God alone, so I can understand why some would prefer to muddy the waters and paint God's world in shades of gray.

Those who say Scripture is a tradition miss the point entirely. Whenever Christ spoke of tradition, He almost always spoke in negative terms and denounced it. So, no. Scripture is not "tradition." Scripture is the mind of God made known to us by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Scripture is comprehensive and complete and universal and life-changing. When Paul tells us Scripture is "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" we have to ask the RCC -- what more is there??? What do Rome's variable traditions and rites and relics and wooden statues and "other Christs" and "co-redeemers" provide that Scripture does not?

4,590 posted on 03/29/2008 11:38:05 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; irishtenor; wmfights; HarleyD; Manfred the Wonder Dawg
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works"...

Which man (of God) is perfect?

... we have to ask the RCC -- what more is there??? What do Rome's variable traditions and rites and relics and wooden statues and "other Christs" and "co-redeemers" provide that Scripture does not?

We could aks the same thing about the scripture readings and gathering on Sundays in Protestant lecture halls, hymns, public prayers...etc.

You said it above, quoting St. Paul, that a man of God manifests himself perfectly unto all good works. No words are necessary. People will recognize God's goodness in such a person by his works, not by the ritualistic waving of hands in the air, not through bible readings, not through uniformed choirs singing man-made hymns, or baptismal ceremonies.

Why, speaking of traditions, Presbyterian churches did not allow any kind of instrumental music for a long time. I bet you, most Presbyterians never even think about their choirs as unnecessary, man-made tradition added to Protestant rituals.

4,592 posted on 03/30/2008 4:41:08 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Thanks for the ping.


4,593 posted on 03/30/2008 6:38:51 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; irishtenor; Alamo-Girl; wmfights; HarleyD; Manfred the Wonder Dawg; ..
...Of course this perspective takes the power of salvation away from men and magisteriums and returns it to God alone,...

If you don't have standing armies and want those that do to acquiesces to your will what better way is there than to teach you must do as the Church says or your soul is in danger of being damned? If you rely on willing cooperation among indwelt Christians you can't guarantee what will happen. However, if you develop a coercive theology in which you control the "keys" to salvation compliance is easier to achieve.

We forget history. As the church of Rome became dominant the aristocracy also began to take on a large role in it's leadership. The very thing that made it strong also made it very susceptible to manipulation, the mono-bishophoric structure, which was not the structure of the Apostolic church.

4,594 posted on 03/30/2008 9:29:56 AM PDT by wmfights (Believe - THE GOSPEL - and be saved)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Amen and amen.

Note to all who think man can help save himself:

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

Read the context, for sure. But don’t miss the point: salvation is so “that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth” (Romans 9:11).


4,612 posted on 03/30/2008 2:15:19 PM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; irishtenor; Alamo-Girl; wmfights; HarleyD; Manfred the Wonder Dawg; Quix; kosta50; ..
[Ephesians 2:8-10] Of course this perspective takes the power of salvation away from men and magisteriums and returns it to God alone, so I can understand why some would prefer to muddy the waters and paint God's world in shades of gray.

Amen to your whole post, Dr. E. I think many of their beliefs are by necessity, despite scripture, in order to protect the sovereignty of both the individual as against God, and the collective that rules over the individuals. If God is irrational and unknowable, there is nothing for them to cling to but man himself as the starting point. That's all they have left. To deny the complete sovereignty of God is to deny His universal answers. Man by design is built to search for those answers and so the only place for them to find those answers is in the hierarchy of the Church. Wholly inadequate, of course, but that's the price they pay.

4,830 posted on 04/07/2008 11:13:55 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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