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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50; Kolokotronis; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; wmfights; ...
FK: ***There was love in the Trinity before there was creation, and love is an action that can be measured with time.***

Love is not an action. It is a decision.

AH HA! (he says :) I disagree that love is not an action. I work at loving my loved ones all the time. But in any case if you say it is a decision, then that clearly denotes a change. :)

FK: ***IOW, those who walked away from Jesus were not actually true followers in the first place. They were posers.***

Every one sins; everyone walks away from God at least on occasion. Does that mean that all are posers? Or can the non posers sin with impunity?

Of course not. But you demand perfection from believers and that does not happen. Your side says the only other possibility is confession to a priest. Ridiculous. True believers do sin on occasion, but never to a level that would cause the loss of salvation. Otherwise some ONE would have snatched the believer out of God's hands. Scripture forbids this. There is NO exception, explicit or implied, for the believer to snatch himself away from God. That is SOLELY anti-Biblical (not extra-Biblical) Tradition.

Where does God say that believers cannot renounce their faith?

John 10, obviously. It says NO ONE. If a believer counts as one person then he is included in NO ONE. There is no other way to read it. It is explicit and clear. It is easy to understand.

4,500 posted on 03/26/2008 10:17:04 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper

***I disagree that love is not an action. I work at loving my loved ones all the time.***

Love cannot be an action. You may work at it, attempt to maintain it or grow it, or act upon it in the manner that you choose, but it is not an emotion, nor is it an action.

***But you demand perfection from believers and that does not happen.***

I do? Where?

***Your side says the only other possibility is confession to a priest.***

It’s only Scriptural. And Apostolic.

***True believers do sin on occasion, but never to a level that would cause the loss of salvation.***

I keep forgetting where it says that in Scripture. I have brought up many verses which show the opposite, including from Paul - rightfully quoted.

***There is NO exception, explicit or implied, for the believer to snatch himself away from God. That is SOLELY anti-Biblical (not extra-Biblical) Tradition.***

Heb 4:

4
For he has spoken somewhere about the seventh day in this manner, “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works”;
5
and again, in the previously mentioned place, “They shall not enter into my rest.”
6
Therefore, since it remains that some will enter into it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience,

Formerly received? Only true believers can receive Christ. If you formerly believed and then disobeyed and will not enter into heaven, then you can lose your salvation.

The thing is that we believe, as the Apostles did, that the Grace of God is the enabling power to allow us to be saved. We can reject that power and put our souls into peril:

Heb 10:

26
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins
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but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

Paul here is disagreeing with the Reformed in a rather obvious manner.

John 10. No one can take them. But as we see from Paul, what this really means is that satan has no power over us when we are empowered by the Grace of God, than we give to him. He can lead but we do not have to follow. He cannot snatch us, but we certainly can go where he leads.


4,511 posted on 03/27/2008 1:35:23 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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