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To: Forest Keeper

***I disagree that love is not an action. I work at loving my loved ones all the time.***

Love cannot be an action. You may work at it, attempt to maintain it or grow it, or act upon it in the manner that you choose, but it is not an emotion, nor is it an action.

***But you demand perfection from believers and that does not happen.***

I do? Where?

***Your side says the only other possibility is confession to a priest.***

It’s only Scriptural. And Apostolic.

***True believers do sin on occasion, but never to a level that would cause the loss of salvation.***

I keep forgetting where it says that in Scripture. I have brought up many verses which show the opposite, including from Paul - rightfully quoted.

***There is NO exception, explicit or implied, for the believer to snatch himself away from God. That is SOLELY anti-Biblical (not extra-Biblical) Tradition.***

Heb 4:

4
For he has spoken somewhere about the seventh day in this manner, “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works”;
5
and again, in the previously mentioned place, “They shall not enter into my rest.”
6
Therefore, since it remains that some will enter into it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience,

Formerly received? Only true believers can receive Christ. If you formerly believed and then disobeyed and will not enter into heaven, then you can lose your salvation.

The thing is that we believe, as the Apostles did, that the Grace of God is the enabling power to allow us to be saved. We can reject that power and put our souls into peril:

Heb 10:

26
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins
27
but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

Paul here is disagreeing with the Reformed in a rather obvious manner.

John 10. No one can take them. But as we see from Paul, what this really means is that satan has no power over us when we are empowered by the Grace of God, than we give to him. He can lead but we do not have to follow. He cannot snatch us, but we certainly can go where he leads.


4,511 posted on 03/27/2008 1:35:23 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50; Kolokotronis; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; wmfights; ...
Love cannot be an action. You may work at it, attempt to maintain it or grow it, or act upon it in the manner that you choose, but it is not an emotion, nor is it an action.

Then what is love? Since you believe that salvation can be lost, you are forced to believe that love can be switched on and off. Is that thing that is switched on and off static? I think it was you who called love a decision. That is certainly an action.

Heb. 4:6 Therefore, since it remains that some will enter into it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience, (NAB?)

Formerly received? Only true believers can receive Christ. If you formerly believed and then disobeyed and will not enter into heaven, then you can lose your salvation.

Interesting difference in texts. Mine says:

Heb 4:6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.

That's quite a difference I'd say. :) Here is the KJV:

Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: KJV

The idea seems clear that the reason they didn't enter was that they never believed, although they had heard the word. That happens all the time. See also the lead up:

Heb 3:19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

And especially:

Heb 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

The context is unmistakable. Some physically hear, but they do not have spiritual ears to really HEAR.

[Quoted by Mark:] Heb 10: 26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

Paul here is disagreeing with the Reformed in a rather obvious manner.

Not at all. If we take this particular passage literally, as you do, then all of us are lost by definition, right? Nothing in this passage says "but don't worry, you can always confess to a priest and regain your salvation". There is nothing like that. Therefore, this must be interpreted. Consistent with the rest of the Bible, and ESPECIALLY with the rest of Paul, the better interpretation is that Paul is positing an impossibility for educational purposes. That seems likely to me since it is Paul who affirms that we can be sure of our salvation:

Rom 10:9-10 : 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

4,794 posted on 04/04/2008 11:20:56 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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