This is not proof, since the victims’ groups are nowing targeting the Southern Baptists, unless you are labeling the Baptists with also trusting the clergy without question.
It IS proof that the institution is very powerful over its laity. ....... I have no doubt that there are Southern Baptist preachers out there who are pedophiles. However, I am totally unaware of any allegations on an institutional level. If you have such information I would very much like to know about it. I doubt that you could though, since we are autonomous bodies. The larger crime of the recent scandal was that it was supported institutionally. That's why the payouts crossed the billion-dollar threshold.
FK: ***God promised that I need to confess my sins to one of your priests to have them forgiven? ***
Firstly, they are not my priests, they are God’s. Secondly, we have Jesus instructing the Apostles. John 20: [23, and other passages].
I did not know it was improper to refer to Catholic priests as having anything to do with specific laity. I am very happy to talk about MY pastor anytime. :) He was called by God to serve, and I know he would want me to refer to him as MY pastor.
I know you have a few verses that grant powers to the Apostles, but I don't see any from you that lay down the principle that the authority and power that was uniquely held by the Apostles was transferable. Sure, authority to lead and teach is commonly transferred by the wise to the next generation. That only makes sense, and all Christian faiths practice that. But your particular faith claims SO MUCH MORE. However it is NOT scriptural. It requires a faith in men to believe.
Mark: ***If free will didn’t matter, why did Jesus spend so much time telling us what to do?
FK: Sanctification and perseverance.**
Mark: I’m not sure what you’re saying here. If all we need comes to us from the indwelling Holy Spirit, then none of Scripture is worth anything, since the HS will inform the Reformed elect perfectly of anything that they need to know and there will be no mistake or translational error.
You are presuming mysticism when none is indicated. The Holy Spirit uses tools to give us what we need. The scriptures are a major tool that He uses. Since God has preserved the truth of the scriptures, despite additions attempted by certain Roman Catholic faiths, there is no worry that the Holy Spirit's leadings will be off. The scriptures are reliable and dependable for His actual children.
If one does not already have the Reformed Holy Spirit causing one to believe, then of what use is it to tell anyone of the Good News? It will only be a seed thrown onto rocky ground, right? God does not ‘plan’ anyway. He exists always and everywhen.
It is of use to reach a true elect if God has ordained it. There can be no doubt that God has used the as yet unsaved (or even the non-elect) to preach the word to the elect. That has simply happened, so it is of use. The efficaciousness of the seed is solely determined by God. It is not determined by man. While God certainly does not plan as He goes along, He DOES have a plan formed before the foundations that He is executing flawlessly as we experience time.
FK: ***Man does not have to have ULTIMATE controlling power to be responsible for his own sin.***
How can you be responsible for something that you have no power over?
Man has the full power to sin, and he exercises it. God allows that for the lost, and sometimes with the saved. Since God does not force anyone to sin, man is responsible.
Works don’t get you to heaven, but evil works without repentance get you to hell.
With all due respect, that is NOT the testimony of Apostolics on this thread. :) Perhaps you are parsing what "get you to heaven" means. What you all have told me is that a man must decide, using his own free will, to do enough good works so as to make himself acceptable to God. You will say that God will help you the whole way, but the ultimate decision to do the works (hopefully) sufficient to enter Heaven is up to the man himself.
Running around saying that you have the indwelling Spirit and therefore know better than any other man who doesn’t seems pretty arrogant to me, especially when no evidence is required other than one’s say so.
Well, I think that all believers know some things better than non-believers, and I hope you would agree with that. So, I don't understand your claim. I do run around and say that I have the indwelling Spirit. Don't you? As far as evidence is concerned, I understand that the truth of your claim of Apostolic succession is based on the say so of those who profess to have that power. The Bible certainly says nothing about it. Only the most tortured interpretation could find a case for it. So, I don't see your claims as being any more evidence-based than mine. I mean, you don't have to sell me that men who wanted power long ago claimed power in the name of the Lord. That is nothing new. It's not proof either.
Nobody gets to heaven with Jesus and the Grace of God. That is the whole idea of the Footprints poem. He helps, supports and sometimes carries us, but it’s us that has to walk there. God provides no limos.
That's amazing. The first time I heard that poem was long before I became a Reformer and I understood it then to relate to our utter dependence on God. IOW, the exact opposite of your interpretation. :)
Now, I fully agree with you that your Church's position is that no one gets to Heaven with Jesus and grace, but earlier in this same post you just said that "Works don’t get you to heaven". I challenged that on behalf of the view of your Church, so I would ask you for a clarification on what you think. If it's not works and it's not faith then what do you say it is?
***I have no doubt that there are Southern Baptist preachers out there who are pedophiles. However, I am totally unaware of any allegations on an institutional level. If you have such information I would very much like to know about it. I doubt that you could though, since we are autonomous bodies.***
That’s why they went after the Catholics first - it is a very centralized organization with deeper pockets. I am not aware of organized institutional abuse for the reasons that you state. But there is abuse at least at the levels of the Church and we shall see what the victims’ groups efforts will result in over the next few years.
*** did not know it was improper to refer to Catholic priests as having anything to do with specific laity. I am very happy to talk about MY pastor anytime. :) He was called by God to serve, and I know he would want me to refer to him as MY pastor. ***
That is why I sometimes refer to the Protestant view as backwards possessive. Protestants often refer to ‘my God’; Catholics belong to God. The building, the parish and the diocese we attend do not belong to us, in a theological sense. The Church is not ours; we belong to the Church. I think that this is very important philosophical distinction and one which highlights the separation between us theologically and which has given rise or rebirth of many noteworthy heresies.
***I know you have a few verses that grant powers to the Apostles, but I don’t see any from you that lay down the principle that the authority and power that was uniquely held by the Apostles was transferable.***
Really? So Paul was never consecrated by the Apostles? Stephen? Matthias? Fascinating Bible you have there, FK. You may wish to go online to: http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/ for an unabridged copy.
***The Holy Spirit uses tools to give us what we need. The scriptures are a major tool that He uses. Since God has preserved the truth of the scriptures, despite additions attempted by certain Roman Catholic faiths, there is no worry that the Holy Spirit’s leadings will be off. The scriptures are reliable and dependable for His actual children.***
I thought that the indwelling knowledge passed on by the Holy Spirit was enough. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is insufficient to move mens’ hearts and souls and that the creation, production, dissemination and preaching of the Bible by men to other men is required for salvation? Ooooh, I think that we’re verging on a works based system with a very weak Holy Spirit. I don’t think that Calvin would approve, FK.
***It is of use to reach a true elect if God has ordained it. There can be no doubt that God has used the as yet unsaved (or even the non-elect) to preach the word to the elect. That has simply happened, so it is of use.***
Mechanical rote. Oh, can you name me an instance of the non elect to preach the word to the elect? How does that mechanism work anyway? Does the elect hear the Gospel (or Paul anyway) and then all of a sudden the Light of the Holy Spirit gets clicked on and all this indwelling knowledge, or some of it, or something, comes pouring into one’s soul, or brain, or kidneys?
***While God certainly does not plan as He goes along, He DOES have a plan formed before the foundations that He is executing flawlessly as we experience time.***
How does the Reformed explain the failure of Israel to accept Christ? Is that part of God’s flawless ‘plan’?
***Man has the full power to sin, and he exercises it. God allows that for the lost, and sometimes with the saved. Since God does not force anyone to sin, man is responsible.***
Tiptoing around that minefield again aren’t we? You guys claim that God has preordained everything and micromanages everything and is in full control. How then, do you claim that God does not force anyone to sin? If the Reformed un elect can do nothing but sin, and God created them to sin, then the Reformed God is responsible for their sins. QED.
***With all due respect, that is NOT the testimony of Apostolics on this thread. :) Perhaps you are parsing what “get you to heaven” means. What you all have told me is that a man must decide, using his own free will, to do enough good works so as to make himself acceptable to God. You will say that God will help you the whole way, but the ultimate decision to do the works (hopefully) sufficient to enter Heaven is up to the man himself.***
God wills that all men be saved. If they aren’t, it is because they will be Judged to be one of the goats and not one of the sheep. The Judgement is on deeds, you must admit, or does your Bible need even more pages restored?
***Now, I fully agree with you that your Church’s position is that no one gets to Heaven with Jesus and grace,***
Huh? The Church’s position is that without the Grace of God, nobody can possibly enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I hope that you’ve simply misstated yourself, or else little of our conversations over time seem to have mattered.
***earlier in this same post you just said that “Works don’t get you to heaven”. I challenged that on behalf of the view of your Church, so I would ask you for a clarification on what you think. If it’s not works and it’s not faith then what do you say it is?***
Who says that it is not faith? Faith is required. Baptism is required. Feeding the hungry is required. Clothing the naked is required. Repentence is required. Confession is required.
Where Scripture tells us that more than one thing is required, then all of them are required. That’s the problem with cherry picking verse - this one says this and doesn’t say that. But - these other verses say that. Therefore the Church incorporates both into the theology, where the Reformed will omit one.
FK: It IS proof that the institution is very powerful over its laity. ....... I have no doubt that there are Southern Baptist preachers out there who are pedophiles. However, I am totally unaware of any allegations on an institutional level.
One correction FK, it's not a problem with pedophiles. The children abused were not infants. They were typically post pubescent males. It was a problem with predatory homosexuals.
The Southern Baptists are less likely to be hurt as badly for several reasons. The clergy is not permeated by homosexuals. Our clergy marry and fewer homosexuals become members of our clergy. The other reason is our decentralized structure makes us a less target rich environment for the lawyers. It's awful hard to collect million dollar judgments from churches that only have a couple hundred thousand in assets.