***I have no doubt that there are Southern Baptist preachers out there who are pedophiles. However, I am totally unaware of any allegations on an institutional level. If you have such information I would very much like to know about it. I doubt that you could though, since we are autonomous bodies.***
That’s why they went after the Catholics first - it is a very centralized organization with deeper pockets. I am not aware of organized institutional abuse for the reasons that you state. But there is abuse at least at the levels of the Church and we shall see what the victims’ groups efforts will result in over the next few years.
*** did not know it was improper to refer to Catholic priests as having anything to do with specific laity. I am very happy to talk about MY pastor anytime. :) He was called by God to serve, and I know he would want me to refer to him as MY pastor. ***
That is why I sometimes refer to the Protestant view as backwards possessive. Protestants often refer to ‘my God’; Catholics belong to God. The building, the parish and the diocese we attend do not belong to us, in a theological sense. The Church is not ours; we belong to the Church. I think that this is very important philosophical distinction and one which highlights the separation between us theologically and which has given rise or rebirth of many noteworthy heresies.
***I know you have a few verses that grant powers to the Apostles, but I don’t see any from you that lay down the principle that the authority and power that was uniquely held by the Apostles was transferable.***
Really? So Paul was never consecrated by the Apostles? Stephen? Matthias? Fascinating Bible you have there, FK. You may wish to go online to: http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/ for an unabridged copy.
***The Holy Spirit uses tools to give us what we need. The scriptures are a major tool that He uses. Since God has preserved the truth of the scriptures, despite additions attempted by certain Roman Catholic faiths, there is no worry that the Holy Spirit’s leadings will be off. The scriptures are reliable and dependable for His actual children.***
I thought that the indwelling knowledge passed on by the Holy Spirit was enough. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is insufficient to move mens’ hearts and souls and that the creation, production, dissemination and preaching of the Bible by men to other men is required for salvation? Ooooh, I think that we’re verging on a works based system with a very weak Holy Spirit. I don’t think that Calvin would approve, FK.
***It is of use to reach a true elect if God has ordained it. There can be no doubt that God has used the as yet unsaved (or even the non-elect) to preach the word to the elect. That has simply happened, so it is of use.***
Mechanical rote. Oh, can you name me an instance of the non elect to preach the word to the elect? How does that mechanism work anyway? Does the elect hear the Gospel (or Paul anyway) and then all of a sudden the Light of the Holy Spirit gets clicked on and all this indwelling knowledge, or some of it, or something, comes pouring into one’s soul, or brain, or kidneys?
***While God certainly does not plan as He goes along, He DOES have a plan formed before the foundations that He is executing flawlessly as we experience time.***
How does the Reformed explain the failure of Israel to accept Christ? Is that part of God’s flawless ‘plan’?
***Man has the full power to sin, and he exercises it. God allows that for the lost, and sometimes with the saved. Since God does not force anyone to sin, man is responsible.***
Tiptoing around that minefield again aren’t we? You guys claim that God has preordained everything and micromanages everything and is in full control. How then, do you claim that God does not force anyone to sin? If the Reformed un elect can do nothing but sin, and God created them to sin, then the Reformed God is responsible for their sins. QED.
***With all due respect, that is NOT the testimony of Apostolics on this thread. :) Perhaps you are parsing what “get you to heaven” means. What you all have told me is that a man must decide, using his own free will, to do enough good works so as to make himself acceptable to God. You will say that God will help you the whole way, but the ultimate decision to do the works (hopefully) sufficient to enter Heaven is up to the man himself.***
God wills that all men be saved. If they aren’t, it is because they will be Judged to be one of the goats and not one of the sheep. The Judgement is on deeds, you must admit, or does your Bible need even more pages restored?
***Now, I fully agree with you that your Church’s position is that no one gets to Heaven with Jesus and grace,***
Huh? The Church’s position is that without the Grace of God, nobody can possibly enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I hope that you’ve simply misstated yourself, or else little of our conversations over time seem to have mattered.
***earlier in this same post you just said that “Works don’t get you to heaven”. I challenged that on behalf of the view of your Church, so I would ask you for a clarification on what you think. If it’s not works and it’s not faith then what do you say it is?***
Who says that it is not faith? Faith is required. Baptism is required. Feeding the hungry is required. Clothing the naked is required. Repentence is required. Confession is required.
Where Scripture tells us that more than one thing is required, then all of them are required. That’s the problem with cherry picking verse - this one says this and doesn’t say that. But - these other verses say that. Therefore the Church incorporates both into the theology, where the Reformed will omit one.
Where in Scripture is a believer condemned for failing to be baptized?
I agree that this does highlight some of our bigger differences. If you belong to the RCC, then you must also belong to the Pope. I do not belong to the Pope. :) I also note that many Catholics refer to "Our Mother" in a theological sense. Finally, we have this:
John 20:27-29 : 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Jesus did not appear to have any problem with this saying.
I thought that the indwelling knowledge passed on by the Holy Spirit was enough. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is insufficient to move mens’ hearts and souls and that the creation, production, dissemination and preaching of the Bible by men to other men is required for salvation? Ooooh, I think that we’re verging on a works based system with a very weak Holy Spirit. I don’t think that Calvin would approve, FK.
The Holy Spirit is fully capable of converting men's hearts who would never have access to the written word, and presumably He has done so. However, under the normal course the Spirit will convert a heart and then see to it that the person HEARS the word and then believes. In either case, no works of men are done or needed, and God gets all the credit.
Mechanical rote. Oh, can you name me an instance of the non elect to preach the word to the elect? How does that mechanism work anyway? Does the elect hear the Gospel (or Paul anyway) and then all of a sudden the Light of the Holy Spirit gets clicked on and all this indwelling knowledge, or some of it, or something, comes pouring into one’s soul, or brain, or kidneys?
I'm just noting the principle that anyone can SAY the word without actually believing in it. We could hire an actor, etc. Nevertheless, if that was the particular time God had ordained for an elect to start believing then it would happen. In the same way, surely there are clergy on all sides who are not of the elect. They say the right words, but are not believers themselves.
How does the Reformed explain the failure of Israel to accept Christ? Is that part of God’s flawless ‘plan’?
Yes, to the extent they did not accept Him that was a part of God's plan. God alone chooses who are to be His. In addition, I don't think that every last man of Israel was lost, but it does seem clear that many were.
God wills that all men be saved. If they aren’t, it is because they will be Judged to be one of the goats and not one of the sheep. The Judgement is on deeds, you must admit, or does your Bible need even more pages restored?
There is A judgment on deeds, but the judgment to get into Heaven is by grace through faith, and not by works. God decides who are the goats and who are the sheep.