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Conclusion from Peru and Mexico
email from Randall Easter | 25 January 2008 | Randall Easter

Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg

January 25, 2008

ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.

My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.

I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.

It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.

I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.

Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."


TOPICS: Apologetics; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: evangelism; mexico; peru; reformed; truth
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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Cvengr; HarleyD; ...
And if your theory is correct, why would the Bible say "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent"? [Acts 17:30] Was that a sign of a colossal failure or evidence of a satanic teaser, FK?

That is simply one of many outward calls. They are distinguished from inward calls in that they do not signify God's intent to act. If outward calls DID signify God's intent to act, then He would truly be as weak as many Christians believe He is. Thank God it is easy to tell the difference, as with the good verses that Dr. E. posted.

Or how about your favorite? "even so through one act of righteousness there resulted in justification of life to all men." [Rom 5:18] Surely you believe when Paul says it, don't you?

Sure. Paul understood that Adam's act affected literally ALL men. He also understood that Christ's sacrifice literally affected ALL believers. All men are subject to the bad, but only believers are subject to the good. Otherwise, all men would be saved. So, common sense tells us that we cannot go with your interpretation. It just doesn't match what we know to be true.

even Paul here says that He is the Savior of all men especially but not exclusively of believers! I guess you will just have to get more instructions from the Reformed Police to explain these. :)

Well, one option we have is to take all of your interpretations, look at the real world, and then throw out the Bible due to impossibility. Another option we have is to interpret correctly and realize that these terms refer to the whole "world" of believers. Suddenly, all of those verses make sense and match what we know to be true from our own observations.

But all in all it seems that the Scriptures reflect (imagine!) what the Apostolic Church teaches! Are we reading the same Bible?

No no no. :) That's what I'm saying. IF we go with your interpretation then it fails because it is impossible. Your interpretations do not mean that all men COULD be saved, they mean that all men ARE saved. We know that can't be the case. Fortunately, I suppose, your interpretations force going too far, so far in fact that it is impossible. All men simply are not saved. That's why I offered a more reasonable alternative.

That quote comes from Micah 7:6 - "For son treats father contemptuously, Daughter rises up against her mother, Daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; A man's enemies are the men of his own household" But what is Micah 7 about? It's about Israel in mystery..."the godly have been swept away" form the land, not one upright remains..." Either Israel described by Micah is morally corrupt, or he is suffering from a major case of depression.

Yes, Israel was morally corrupt. The righteous were so few that it was as if there were none at all. They went through several cycles like this. Another good example of mass error consuming an entire people. It DOES happen. :)

[On Micah 7:5-7] Obviously this is not God speaking but a man about the sad state of moral demise of Israel. But Matthew choreographs it to make it look like God came down to earth to set a son against his father, and a daughter against her mother.............. This is a completely altered meaning of the OT verse. It says Christ specifically came with the purpose of driving the wedge between them. The original, of course,had no such message.

It's not an altered meaning at all. The Micah passage does not address the cause of all this, it is silent. Matthew simply answers that question. Everything that Micah is talking about happened BECAUSE it was a part of God's design. It fits perfectly. :)

FK: 15:19 : "if you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."I'll just let the Gospels speak for themselves.

You know that's not why the world hates you or anyone else.

Jesus' words ring true to me. There is no problem with impossibility here. We Christians certainly experience persecution. If not what He said, then, what do you suppose He really meant?

6,641 posted on 07/24/2008 9:52:34 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Cvengr
FK: There is absolutely no way you can sell it as a certainty that Mark was not written and known to Paul before 1 Cor. No way.

I am worried because your statements are becoming overtly dogmatic FK. When was Mark's Gospel written? Where was Mark and where was Paul when it was written?

I don't know what is dogmatic about my saying YOU can't be dogmatic about this! :) I just said you can't prove that Mark WASN'T written first and known to Paul. There are differing reasonable views about when it was written. One of those views is that if Acts was written some time around 61 AD, and Luke preceded it, then Mark must have been even earlier since Luke probably borrowed from Mark in writing his Gospel. That would put the date anywhere in the 50's or earlier. 1 Cor. was probably written in the mid 50's, obviously after his first visit there in 50. So, it might have been after, but it might have been before. If Mark was before, then the whole problem goes away just for that.

6,642 posted on 07/24/2008 10:31:21 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; HarleyD; Cvengr; ...
FK: So, God's hand-picked, right-hand man to Moses was comparable to Andrea Yates.

Yes. People who kill because "God told them to" are insane.

OK, then since Joshua succeeded Moses and led all of Israel, then it proves that insane people come to rule over God's people, installed by God no less. That doesn't exactly stir me with faith in the leaders of the Apostolic Church. :) I think I'll stick with God and let Him rule over the Church.

I will ask you again (because this is not the first time you use this verse) where does Moses write about Jesus?

I will answer you, I'm sure, as I did before. In places like this:

Deut 18:15-19 : 15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die." 17 The Lord said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

Gen 3:15 : And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

These are obvious examples. But the fuller answer is that virtually every time he wrote about God he was writing about Christ. For example, the Genesis story of creation is talking about Christ since John confirms for us that Christ created all things.

6,643 posted on 07/24/2008 11:37:37 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper

Wonderful effort at being logical with a list of irrational nonsense.


6,644 posted on 07/24/2008 12:13:23 PM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; HarleyD; ...
FK: Ah, if you believed in and trusted the Holy Scriptures, then you would have a complete answer to your question.

What's my question, FK?

You asked where else we could begin (implying that man is the only answer). My overall point is that beginning with man is futile if one is searching for real truth.

FK: The problem with your (and their) view is that you have no answer at all to the problem of unifying the universals with the particulars.

What answer are you talking about? All I said was that we detect the world through our senses and, depending on what we receive is what we see and believe.

The answer is in starting with God and His word rather than starting with man and his guesses. Men too easily believe that their own perceptions are the whole of truth. That viewpoint cannot give eternal meaning to anything relating to God or the actual world around us.

Some people accept their ignorance and know their limits; others fill the gaps with fantasy and pretend it's real. As far as Orthodoxy is concerned, man's true meaning is to be Christ-like because that's how God created us, in His image and Likeness. But there may very well be no meaning to man's life, and to all this existence. So what! You don't like it? Make one up! (bold added)

Yes, it has long puzzled me that you seem to be very comfortable with this proposition. Indeed it is well suited to your views. I just know that many important thinkers have spent years of their lives agonizing over these issues, only to wind up in despair because there are no answers when starting with man. But, apparently for some thinkers, they are content in the intellectual wilderness. :)

Well, we can tell what happened before we were here. We have learned to connect the dots from the clues left behind and see what caused what even if we don't understand why.

Would you consider yourself a Darwinist?

FK: And, that we can never understand anything about that thing, which we will call "God".

We can't because it's above our level of comprehension. Claiming we do is to claim that our mind is on the par with God's; it is denying man's own limitations, and as Clint Eastwood says "Man's gotta know his limitations." :)

You must then suppose that it was God's intention that we understand nothing, since He created us this way, and you say God does nothing to allow us to understand. To me, that is a VERY unloving God. It seems that we have extremely different ideas about how our God relates to us.

6,645 posted on 07/24/2008 12:46:57 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper
It seems that we have extremely different ideas about how our God relates to us.

Indeed. Thank you so much for sharing your insights and testimony, dear brother in Christ!

6,646 posted on 07/24/2008 1:17:15 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

And who reads them? Not me.


6,647 posted on 07/24/2008 3:13:11 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Cvengr
And who decided what is scripture? You?

No, not me, it's not my word. God decided because it's HIS word.

FK: God-breathed means the authors were not making anything up.

No it means they were inspired to write the way someone is inspired to write about a fire fighter saving a child from a burning building. The fire fighter doesn't write for the "inspired." The "inspired" write for the inspired, in their words and thoughts. There is no inerrancy or infallibility in inspiration.

Then you do not believe there is any such thing as God's Holy word, since they are not God's words. The Bible is "objectively", to you, apparently just "some book". There is nothing supernatural about it.

FK: I think I understand your point alright, and I disagree with it. If you throw out the truth of it, and rely only on what you perceive as "the message", THEN the message is whatever you want it to be.

Throwing out what truth? If the story is true but the message isn't, what good is that for us to follow? If the story is not true but the message is a lesson in truth, that is okay, it still proclaims truth that we can imitate for the betterment of the world.

The historicity of the story. Once that is thrown out, the message is open to being whatever one wants it to be. That leads to thinking like that God only revealed Himself in the person of Christ. It feels good and seems comfortable. Nothing stops you from doing that because the Bible is just another book, written by fallible men, and is full of myth. You can pick and choose what to accept from it. That is faith a la carte, and is easy. It is much more difficult to accept everything God has given us and accept Him for WHO He is, even if some things don't make sense to us immediately.

We all rely on our "perception," FK. If you don't perceive the world through what you read and hear and know then show me some proof otherwise.

That's some of it, but clearly not all of it. As we become sanctified in Him we have a greater and greater ability to perceive the world through Godly eyes. Our perspectives are put straight as we conform our minds to the mind of Christ. I can't imagine you disagreeing with that even though you have been arguing that man is the center of it all.

It is not I who thinks what God should be like, the Bible tells us that Jesus is the incarnate Logos. If that's how He appeared to the world then is it wrong to believe that that's how God wanted us to see Him or hear Him?

That depends on whether one likes and accepts the particular portion of scriptures that say that. It also depends on whether one accepts the history that that's how Jesus appeared to the world. It is a free for all after all. :) Anyone just makes up his own standards and goes from there.

This is really not very difficult to understand FK. Christians follow Christ. People--->Christ--->Father. He is our Filter. What passes Him is true, what doesn't is false.

Not really, since you discount many of Christ's statements in the Gospels for failing to meet your other standards. We just talked about your discounting Jesus' remarks in the desert because you didn't think it was sufficiently witnessed. So even Christ Himself doesn't survive the axe when we make up our own standards. Faith a la carte.

6,648 posted on 07/24/2008 6:20:28 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: stfassisi; kosta50; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Cvengr; HarleyD; ...
FK: “”The theology behind the Eucharist is an invention of man. The Bible is the work of God.””

Prove it?

Well, I've already pinged you recently to a case I made about the Bible being the word of God. As for the Eucharist, I see no reasonable interpretation of scripture that demonstrates the Catholic theology of the ordinance or sacrament. Jesus was present at the Last Supper and said "Do this in remembrance of me". He did not say anything like "Do this with Me again and again because I'm going to physically show up every time you do it". No, He said in remembrance. Jesus also made no mention that the sacrament had any salvific properties. He also said nothing about the presiding priest being "another Me". He also said nothing about it being a re-sacrifice or re-presentation of the sacrifice that He was about to make. The theology just isn't there, therefore, I conclude that it is man made.

I can show countless Eucharist Miracles,in fact,fk,I have prayed during Adoration and been witness to some.

To be honest, and unless it's ridiculous, I try to stay away from judging claimed miracles by people of other Christian faiths. God does miracles every day, across all Christian faiths, and so I don't feel comfortable saying that the miracles you claim "don't count" because I disagree with your theology. I just don't know.

FK-If it's the same Christ, then why aren't you literally vampiric cannibals? :) Jesus was not literally present in the bread and wine at the Last Supper, He was just literally present.

That's what the heretics who persecuted the early Christians thought. These people were of the belief of those who no longer followed Christ when He said "you must eat My Flesh" This puts you in the same boat as the persecutors and those who walked away from our Blessed Lord.

No, the Apostles had the explanation that it was symbolic, in remembrance. Nobody actually gnawed on the body of Christ and nobody opened up His veins to drink His blood that night. That's what the fear was about, and the Apostles had an answer for that. But for Catholics today, I'm not so sure. It appears that your current theology has it being more literal than when Christ was physically in the room back then. :)

Also, you limit Christ, who is God in being in one place at a time physically since you think He could not be in the Eucharist at the same time of the last supper.

But Christ never makes that case. He makes a completely different case when He says "in remembrance". If He meant that He would physically be there every time, then it would make no sense for Him to say that. His statement directly contradicts your interpretation.

Your lack of humility and respect for the Martyr's and Saints is stunning!

LOL! I'm sorry, I guess I waste all that humility and respect on God, when I should know better where it is deserved. :)

I'll leave you with this very good article on Eucharist and the error of protestantism.

Thanks for the article. I read the whole thing, but I knew we were headed for trouble when one of the author's first points was, in effect, if lots of early Catholics believed in the real presence, then it must be true. :) The OT blows that presupposition clear out of the water.

I suppose the author made a decent go of it, but it read to me like a "high-five" article, written by a Catholic FOR other Catholics. I did not think he was fair at all with his treatment of the Protestant position. And given the depth he went into (I realize that only two parts are printed here) he never addressed such obvious issues as the other uses of similar metaphor that Jesus used. For example:

John 4:10-14 : 10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water ." 11 "Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water ? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?" 13 Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

So here we have water that Jesus will give so that the person will never thirst. Is this literal? Is He water, is He wine, etc. ? I don't know. It has always just seemed to me that the purpose of the practice has much more centered on the men performing the sacrament than on the adherence to scriptural teaching. Men are glorified in the Catholic Eucharist. When we partake of the Supper, no man is glorified except Christ.

6,649 posted on 07/24/2008 8:40:18 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper
Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!
6,650 posted on 07/24/2008 9:03:53 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; irishtenor; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; Gamecock; wmfights; HarleyD; ...

Yes, Christ's propitiation is capable of redeeming the entire world, every single soul who has ever been or will be born.  And yet not all men are saved

Two different things. Your favorite Apostle makes it very clear that Christ's sacrifice justified everyone.

"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men" [Rom 5:18]

Why are then not all saved? Because of ego and pride, and not from any lack of God's grace.

John reiterates this distinction a few verses later... "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." -- 1 John 2:19

This doesn't agree with what Jesus is quoted as saying, namely that there are those who

"believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away" [Luke 8:13].

If they were not "not of us" then they never believed, but that's not what Jesus is saying in Luke.

Faith is the evidence of our regeneration by the Holy Spirit

Faith is love for God, a belief in His goodness.

a lack of that faith "manifests" and testifies that "they were not all of us."

According to Christ (Luke 8:13) they lost their faith and grace with it, just the way Adam and Eve lost it. They believed the serpent who said they would not die if they ate of the tree, essentially calling God a liar, and they believed him. Once they lost faith, they sinned. The very beginning of the Bible tells us that we can lose faith and fall from grace!

Every time we sin, we fall from grace. Every time we repent, we are restored.

Universal salvation does not exist

No it doesn't, but not from lack of God's grace; rather from abundance of human pride.

Universal atonement does not exist, or else every sin of every man would be forgiven, and all men would be saved.

To the contrary, with one exception, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (my emphasis)

"I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." [Mark 3:28-29]

Therefore, Scripture is telling us that Christ's atonement is specific, personal and transformative

To the contrary, the Scripture is telling us that Christ's atonement is a universal "justification that brings life for all men," impersonal (God is not partial), and, potentially transformative for those who heed His call, and persevere.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word"

You do realize He was talking about the disciples and, naturally, those who succeeded them, not the general population. Your favorite Apostle reminds us that not all are appointed apostles and teachers in God's church, I am sure you know that.

turning it from a specific declaration to whom God wills into a general nudge in the right direction, capable of being ignored by men who are somehow stronger than the Holy Spirit.

God is love and love doesn't impose. Those who love are not oppressors but liberators. Forced love is no "love" except maybe or those with S&M tendencies.

That is not the God of Scripture. He gets what He wants because it's all His anyway. Some men are given saving grace and are healed by His stripes and receive the love of the truth, while some men are not

That is not God as revealed in Christ. God, as revealed in Christ, desires salvation for all men.

Paul agrees with Christ..."And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" -- 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11

Yes, Paul would say something like that, unfortunately, but it does not agree with Christ of the Gospels. Christian God does not deceive and lie.

As for out dear Paul, he had an impossible work to accomplish and he used everything and all to win people over, by his own admission

To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save [sic] some. [1 Cor 9:22] 

So, always read him cum grano salis.

6,651 posted on 07/24/2008 11:40:24 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper
Books which glorify God by discussing Christ and His work on earth, all in accord with Scripture, are simply another means of preaching the Gospel

Why? Coming from people who say sola scriptura it makes not sense. Is the Bible lacking in something? Is it not perspicuous? Does is say we should write books about it (and profit off of it?!?)? Is the Bible not sufficient and proficient? Is it not, after all in your mind, the word of God? If so, why does it need someone else on top of it?

Your side preaches one thing and practices something completely different.

6,652 posted on 07/24/2008 11:48:26 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

“Sola Scriptura” means that everything needed for salvation is contained in the Bible - it doesn’t mean that man is unable to talk about the contents of the Bible, verbally or in writing. No man can add anything of merit to the Scripture - that’s the point.


6,653 posted on 07/25/2008 5:14:08 AM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg
“Sola Scriptura” means that everything needed for salvation is contained in the Bible - it doesn’t mean that man is unable to talk about the contents of the Bible, verbally or in writing. No man can add anything of merit to the Scripture - that’s the point

Why talk/write about it if it's sufficient? Why talk/write about it if it's meaningful only to those who have ears and eyes to hear and see? Why talk/write about it if God decides who hears and who sees and your talk changes nothing, unless its' all for ego and for making God a profitable business venture?

6,654 posted on 07/25/2008 6:05:34 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

Because human creatures gain insight by hearing a given concept from others. I think Scripture says it this way:

“Folly is joy to him that is destitute of wisdom: but a man of understanding walketh uprightly. Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.”

Because no man is an island unto himself, we each need other saints to help us see where we have blind spots, etc. Regarding the witness to the world, preaching the cross to spiritually dead people is the only thing we can do - it’s what the Scripture says for us to do. Yet the words and phrases that one says may be better understood than what the other says - and either one is fine if it is biblical and not a story of man’s creation.

This is why there are 4 Gospel letters in the Bible.


6,655 posted on 07/25/2008 6:28:36 AM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg

Who says we are qualified to preach and by whose authority?


6,656 posted on 07/25/2008 11:41:48 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

I don’t know if you are qualified to preach.

Many teach that “preaching” and “teaching” is reserved to those elders recognized by the local church. This applies to the regular flock-tending preaching of an elder/pastor.

The preaching of the cross to dead people is not the systematic exposition of Scripture and therefore dos not warrant the oversight that attends the office of elder. In Scripture, people went joyfully to tell others about Christ; often in response to being healed physically. How much more should those who are healed spiritually go joyfully telling others about Christ?

THIS preaching - the proclamation of the saving Gospel of Christ - is the duty and privilege of every Christian. This is what I think John means in 1 John 4:13-15 “Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.”


6,657 posted on 07/25/2008 12:01:08 PM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Cvengr; ...
Kosta: (re Matt 4:4) So neither is an eyewitness account. Rather it is a moral narrative written by a human being expressing a moral lesson to follow.

FK: So, you toss Matt. 4:4 because you say there wasn't a witness there suitable to you? OK. I am sure you have it on good authority that Christ never recounted what happened to Him to His disciples.

Now you are saying that Jesus boasted for having resisted evil? That's rather out of character, wouldn't you say?

There are other issues with this chapter in Matthew, Luke and Mark. According to one,  Jesus was now "full of the Holy Spirit" (cf Luke 4:1). When was Jesus not full of the Holy Spirit? Before Baptism? And, immediately after the Baptism, the Spirit casts/drives (ekkbalei) Him out into the the wilderness! (cf Mark 1:12) Imagine that! The Spirit is ordering The Son around!

And for  what purpose? To be tempted by the devil. And James, which you consider infallible scripture, tells us that God cannot be tempted by evil, and [God] Himself does not tempt anyone (cf James 1:13). So, the only "rational" conclusion is that Jesus must not be God!

Even if we are to assume that the temptation was to apply only to His human nature. it is still an oxymoron, because regardless of His hypostatic union, He is still God and as God cannot be tempted because His human nature was never in conflict with His divine nature.

Obviously, these manuscripts show that Jesus was perceived as human (the "Son of God" part being understood as he Jewish messiah, a human being favored by God, but not divine).

This was nevertheless necessary because the Old Testament says that God rules the earth, whereas the NT says Satan does! * This is ushering not only the morality of resisting evil but also a new theology.

*Matthew 4:8-0, Luke 4:5-7, John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11, 2 Cor 4:4 although Matthew and Luke contradict themselves, as per Mat 11:25, and Luke 10:21.

6,658 posted on 07/25/2008 3:36:30 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Cvengr; ...
Ah, so for this we need to toss the Septuagint and take up the Hebrew OT

No, but it's translation is not equivalent to the Hebrew version. I don't know which is right. In both cases the word "word" is not in the Bible; that much we can be sure of.

While the Hebrew did not have word, the same Hebrew has no problem with "that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord". Adding "word" only makes sense. It is tortured reasoning to suppose it doesn't

If it were supposed to be "mouth" rather than "source." Otherwise it makes no sense to say "everything!" What else but the words would come out of God's mouth?!? His breath? But that's all anthropomorphism, I hope you realize that. If the Spirit is God's "breath," than what is the Son? Where did He come from?  Does everything that comes out of God come out of His "mouth?"  This is like discussing the and the Seven Dwarfs!  Some people just take the whole thing too literally!

6,659 posted on 07/25/2008 3:38:45 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Cvengr; ...
No slip, God will make sure that His children know Him by leading them to know something of His word.

FK, you said "So, if one wants his life to be nourished by God, he MUST know the scriptures himself." Why MUST he? Where is God quoted as saying man MUST know the scriptures himself?

When you refer to my agreeing that I "worship the Bible" you have to include the definition that we agreed upon. That is "devotion to God's word". Otherwise, readers will get confused. By this same type of definition, of course you will be fine with my saying that you worship Mary, by your own admission. And since I do not pray to the Bible, that would make your worship of Mary all the stronger

But this can't be just devotion, FK. You treat the Bible as perfect, complete—by definition, divine because it is the word of God. And anything that comes from God is divine in essence, including His holy words. And that which is divine (in  essence) is God and is worshiped.

No Orthodox or Catholic will say that Mary is divine. It is just that she chose not to sin better than others. Otherwise, she is fully human, capable of sin, mortal, and in need of a Savior. The Orthodox and Catholics have a devotion to Mary, but anyone who considers the Bible to be perfect and divine in essence goes beyond devotion and enters into idolatry.

And yes, the Holy Spirit will teach us everything we need to know. He will illuminate the scriptures to us so that we will understand what we need.

The Bible says the HS will "illuminate the scriptures" to us?!?

One cannot know what or how to pray without first knowing God's word.

Then Abraham could not know how to worship God!

But we do know form the Bible that even the earliest humans gave thanks to God. And that's what the Orthodox and Catholic Christians do to this very day! Gratitude is worship, giving praise or glory (doxa) to God.

We can't know how to ask in good faith without first knowing God's word.

Ask? Is this what this is all about? What's in it for me? Who says that prayer is asking and not giving? Fasting is prayer. And fasting is giving. Devoting times three times a day to remember the Lord and give thanks at meals is prayer. The only thing one should ask is for Him to have mercy on us, and for that you don't need the Bible. People were in awe of God's power and glory even before anything was written.

God can always make special dispensations for people on desert islands, etc., but I am talking about in the normal course.

What "normal" course, FK? God did not distribute the bibles to everyone and said "read it!"

We can't know what God's Commandments are without first knowing God's word. Again, you are espousing a works-ONLY salvation model. The Bible does not teach that. Rather, it teaches a faith-ONLY salvation model.

First, Christ was a Jew and He taught Judaism, which is works-based. You can't love God without knowing the Bible? Is that in the Bible?

Barring a special dispensation, one cannot know what he believes IN without first knowing the word of God.

Then the faith doesn't come from God, but form the Bible. Yet you believe Paul who says he knew Christ in a flash!

One cannot pray without first receiving God's grace. That grace will lead a believer to want to know God's word.

But a few lines before than you write:  "One cannot know what or how to pray without first knowing God's word." So, now it's grace? But, let's say you receive grace without the word. In other words you believe, right? Isn't that what grace gives us? Faith? Where does it say in the  Bible that, in addition to grace (grace is not sufficient!) we need to read the Bible in order to know what to believe in?

6,660 posted on 07/25/2008 3:39:35 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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