Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

sfa to FK: If Christianity was supposed to be solo Scripture than you need to ask yourself why the reformed God was not powerful enough to preserve the originals

Ah, but they will tell you it's because God has a "plan."

Kosta: Christ came to give hope to the whole world, not only "His" people.

FK: Once again, if that is so then either Christ is a colossal failure or a satanic teaser. Christ came already knowing the specific names of all those who ever lived who would never believe. Why would He string them along?

That's what the Bible says—for the whole world, for all mankind. Take it up with Him.

"and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." [1 John 2:2]

Apparently that's what the Apostles believed and you believe what they wrote.

And if your theory is correct, why would the Bible say

"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent"? [Acts 17:30]

Was that a sign of a colossal failure or evidence of a satanic teaser, FK?

Or how about your favorite?

"even so through one act of righteousness there resulted in justification of life to all men." [Rom 5:18]

Surely you believe when Paul says it, don't you?

"...who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [1 Tim 2:4]

or

"For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

or

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men," [Titus 2:11]Obviously

even Paul here says that He is the Savior of all men especially but not exclusively of believers! I guess you will just have to get more instructions from the Reformed Police to explain these. :)

But all in all it seems that the Scriptures reflect (imagine!) what the Apostolic Church teaches! Are we reading the same Bible?

Kosta: That still doesn't explain why divide a son form his father. That makes no sense.

FK: Because non-believers pose a temptation to believers, especially among family members

That quote comes from Micah 7:6

"For son treats father contemptuously,
  Daughter rises up against her mother,
  Daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
  A man's enemies are the men of his own household"

But what is Micah 7 about? It's about Israel in mystery..."the godly have been swept away" form the land, not one upright remains..." Either Israel described by Micah is morally corrupt, or he is suffering from a major case of depression.

Then he adds the following:

5 Do not trust a neighbor;
       put no confidence in a friend.
       Even with her who lies in your embrace
       be careful of your words.

6 For a son dishonors his father,
       a daughter rises up against her mother,
       a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
       a man's enemies are the members of his own household.

7 But as for me, I watch in hope for the LORD,
I wait for God my Savior;
my God will hear me.

Obviously this is not God speaking but a man about the sad state of moral demise of Israel. But Matthew choreographs it to make it look like God came down to earth to set a son against his father, and a daughter against her mother...

"For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" [Mat 10:35]

This is a completely altered meaning of the OT verse. It says Christ specifically came with the purpose of driving the wedge between them. The original, of course,had no such message.

FK: 15:19 : "if you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."I'll just let the Gospels speak for themselves.

You know that's not why the world hates you or anyone else.

FK: It is better to be hated than concede the true faith to make peace.

Oh boy! That sounds positively jihadist!

FK: Then from now on I will assume that you think it is better to concede your faith than to be hated by others. Is this an attitude in all of Orthodoxy?

No, the Orthodox Church doesn't teach that we should concede faith in order not to be hated. I think Orthodoxy is a living proof of that principle, having suffered more than other churches, and is still suffering in places like Iraq, Kosovo, and Somalia. I was simply making an observation that your sweeping generalization can be applied by jihadists as well.

That's non sequitur. Jesus made comparisons all the time. Do you deny He was making one here? I will assume you're sticking with "Matthew lied".

No, the author we ascribe to Matthew wrote post facto (around 70 AD) when the expression "carry your cross" was already used as a synonym for suffering. We just know that Jesus did not use the word "carry your own cross" before it became a synonym for suffering because of His own Crucifixion. So, whoever wrote that verse didn't lie. He believed that's what Jesus would have said.

1 Cor 3:14..."If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." So according to this, there ARE two separate judgments.

The book of Hebrews says otherwise. It says it is appointed for man to die once and then the judgment (9:27).

There is only one judgment. The nature of the judgment following physical death is the same judgment we will receive at the end of times. God doesn't change His mind.

Of what possible relevance could it be whether or not they read the Septuagint?

The Septuagint contains deuterocanonical books.

You act as if that would be absolutely critical to their understanding

I don't act, FK. And, yes it is absolutely critical.

The point is that you were attacking the scriptures and I said that Paul taught that they should be consulted above oral teaching.

Attacking scriptures? LOL! Informed critique is an "attack?"

Ridiculous. You leave out: Mark 9:30-31

Mark wasn't written either when 1 Corinthians was written. Paul wrote according to the Scriptures and my question is what Scriptures? Don't quote Mark to me because it wasn't written yet. We know that from external sources.

There is absolutely no way you can sell it as a certainty that Mark was not written and known to Paul before 1 Cor. No way

I am worried because your statements are becoming overtly dogmatic FK. When was Mark's Gospel written? Where was Mark and where was Paul when it was written?

You are correct to understand for each person there is only one judgment, but which judgment seat will depend upon if the person is a believer who has been raptured and at the bema seat or if the person is an unbeliever finding themseleves before the Great White Throne Judgment.

if the person is a believer who has been raptured and at the bema seat or if the person is an unbeliever finding themseleves before the Great White Throne Judgment

You are preaching Paul over Christ here.

Does the Orthodox Church represent objective truth?

To the believers, the teaching of the Orthodox Church represents the spiritual truth taught by our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, God's hand-picked, right-hand man to Moses was comparable to Andrea Yates

Yes. People who kill because "God told them to" are insane. Every jihadist nut case believes he is doing "God's" will by blowing up pizza parlors and will tell you that in heaven he will receive many rewards for doing "God's" work on earth.

John 5:46 : If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.

I will ask you again (because this is not the first time you use this verse) where does Moses write about Jesus?

So here, you have Jesus supporting, in the Gospels, a man you put in the same league with Andrea Yates.

A murder is a murder, FK.

Francis Schaeffer said it well in his book "Escape From Reason"...the only way to be saved is to raise the empty hands of faith and, by God's grace, to accept God's free gift - faith alone. It was Scripture alone and faith alone."

Francis Schaeffer, again? There is nothing Jesus taught in what he wrote here! Nothing. Certainly not faith alone and scripture alone.

Renaissance thinkers could not accept this because anything other than man was in control

Oh, that is so banal, FK. Renaissance thinkers realized that God gave us a playground and we are free to discover everything about it, to use something we can rely on, reason, and experiment, to make out lives better, to better humanity by providing comfort and abundance of food and other necessities. Renaissance gave birth to printing presses and Bible books without which Luther's Deformation would have been without a basis. What good would have been the books if 1% of the population could read? But thanks to Renaissance, people took up learning and which led to greater literacy. he result being more Bibles along with literacy!

Ah, if you believed in and trusted the Holy Scriptures, then you would have a complete answer to your question

What's my question, FK?

The problem with your (and their) view is that you have no answer at all to the problem of unifying the universals with the particulars

If I have a problem with a problem, then there is no problem, FK! :) What answer are you talking about? All I said was that we detect the world through our senses and, depending on what we receive is what we see and believe. If you were born in some slum in Rio DeJaneiro your outlook on life and your values would probably be quite different.

Under your (and their) view you have no hope of ever answering the eternal questions that give meaning to a man's life, to his very existence

Some people accept their ignorance and know their limits; others fill the gaps with fantasy and pretend it's real. As far as Orthodoxy is concerned, man's true meaning is to be Christ-like because that's how God created us, in His image and Likeness. But there may very well be no meaning to man's life, and to all this existence. So what! You don't like it? Make one up!

That's because man wasn't around when all that happened. One can NEVER reach eternal truth by starting with finite man

Well, we can tell what happened before we were here. We have learned to connect the dots from the clues left behind and see what caused what even if we don't understand why. I don't think a single Renaissance man would say that the purpose of Renaissance was to (re)define eternal truths.

Kosta: No Renaissance man will ever say that mankind created the world.

FK: That's right, they will say what you say, that some unknowable "thing" did it

Somehting caused all this to exist, and we call it God. The rest is made up with human fancy. That's why we have so many different "Gods" on earth. But there is only one gravity, and everybody believes in it!

And, that we can never understand anything about that thing, which we will call "God"

We can't because it's above our level of comprehension. Claiming we do is to claim that our mind is on the par with God's; it is denying man's own limitations, and as Clint Eastwood says "Man's gotta know his limitations." :)

Therefore, for answers we must start from what we do know, man

Well, honestly, that's a heck of a lot more objective than starting with a burning bush and saying God hides in it! It's also a lot closer to our capacity for understanding than trying to figure out God.

Kosta: It doesn't really explain the ultimate Cause, but only the secondary ones. No one ever claimed to know how it all began.

FK: . :) We always have.

I would have to qualify that with Reformed and other Bible-believing Christians believe they DO

You believe the power of “your own” interpretation of God's word is greater than Christ Himself fully present in the Eucharist.

The theology behind the Eucharist is an invention of man. The Bible is the work of God. I have no trouble putting one over the other.

The Eucharist is the same Christ full present in Bodily form who was born Mary,who performed miracles and who is the second person of the Holy Trinity.

If it's the same Christ, then why aren't you literally vampiric cannibals? :) Jesus was not literally present in the bread and wine at the Last Supper, He was just literally present.

Your Bible is not the original scriptures and has been translated incorrectly in many cases to suit a protestant interpretation.

While I haven't read all of the NAB, from the many excerpts that have been posted to me, I don't see it saving Catholic theology in general terms. That is, even using the NAB, Catholic theology doesn't match the Bible.

Any interpretation of the Bible you try and use to attack the Sacraments goes against consistent historical teachings for over 2000 years from the Martyr's and the Saints without whom there would not have been a canon of the Bible.

Your point appears to be that if error is practiced long enough then it becomes true. :) The OT disagrees.

You have your Bible with no unity and no historical interpretations of scriptures.

No unity with what? Historical INTERPRETATIONS do not get better with age. They are either correct or incorrect based on the totality of scriptures, the standard I use.

In fact,Dear brother, the protestant reformation broke unity with each other almost immediately after it began which PROVES that it was not of God.

You emphasize relatively minor differences which are to be expected when the subjugated become free. While denominations did form, the Bible-believing Christian movement was very reasonably theologically in sync. In general, we were all protesting the same things.

Personal interpretation of scripture is the main reason for disunity amongst Christians.

I have found that your side defines "personal interpretation" as anything that disagrees with you. If I used the same definition, then your interpretations are no less personal than mine. You just blindly follow other persons. We follow the Holy Spirit in His lifelong plan for our sanctification. Of course none of us is right about everything, but of course neither is your Church.

That itself ought to tell you that solo Scripture is bogus.

Sola Scriptura does not hold that everyone interprets identically. It holds that the Bible is the sole authority of faith. Your side holds, in true effect, that the Church is the sole authority of faith, yet, I know that not all Catholics interpret identically.

If Christianity was supposed to be solo Scripture than you need to ask yourself why the reformed God was not powerful enough to preserve the originals.

Well, I could ask you that if Christianity was supposed to be invested all in your Church, then why was the Catholic God not powerful enough to protect our children. I don't think we want to go there. :)

AMEN, Forest Keeper!

I'd encourage you to write a book, but then you'd probably have less time to spend here preaching the true Gospel of Christ, as you do so faithfully and forcefully, and that would be our great loss. 8~)

When that book is completed, you’re gonna have to let me know so I can see if the Church will accept it as canon. Gotta stay sola scriptura after all, don’t ya know? Maybe we can fit it in between First and Second Corinthians! :-D

I don't understand your post, but that's not surprising. We White Sox fans have a long history of blank stares.

Your homepage is still one of my favorites. 8~)

FK quoting: Matt 4:4 : Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

The Eucharist is not bread,fk, It is changed into Christ,so as usual you use the Bible for your own purpose.

You said that your Eucharist ceremony was greater than the word of GOD. I was showing you that if so, then your ceremony is greater than that which sustains a man's life. I was hoping that impossibility might have some impression on you, but ............ :)

What good is the Bible if you don't interpret it correctly and love is not the final outcome?

Well, no part of the Bible is useful to a person unless it is interpreted correctly, but I don't know what you mean by "outcome of the Bible". If you mean that in the end that the saved are in Heaven with our loving God, then we believe in that. :)

Kosta: I guess if Paul says it it must be true. Talk about placing your faith in a man!

FK: Well, if he says it in scriptures then YES, it must be true. It's God's Holy word.

And who decided what is scripture? You? And if you believe it, that by itself doesn't mean it is true. It's your belief. But it seems to me that you believe that what you believe must be true. Yet, you have zero proof that it is. All you offer is what you believe.

God-breathed means the authors were not making anything up.

No it means they were inspired to write the way someone is inspired to write about a fire fighter saving a child from a burning building. The fire fighter doesn't write for the "inspired." The "inspired" write for the inspired, in their words and thoughts. There is no inerrancy or infallibility in inspiration.

If you and I witness the same car accident and you say the hit and run car was a blue pick-up and I say it was a gray Mercedes

Bad example, FK. First, if God wrote it for them, God would not write conflicting accounts, where details become fuzzy, unless God is trying to create confusion and discord. Second, this is not about the irrelevant details. This is about Paul claiming that Christ spoke through him. There are no eyewitness accounts. Just blind acceptance that "it must be true" because it's in the Bible—a book written by men, and the only truly objective fact about that book is that it is a book.

Kosta: [comparing different quotes] This can only mean one thing, no less shocking, and that is that so much of what we take for granted even the "red letter" verses were made up by the authors as to what they believed was said. So, why would I believe Paul?

FK: If you believe the former, then you have no reason to believe Paul. Or, anything else in the scriptures for that matter. That is a shame to say the least.

I believe in Paul's message, when it reflects the message of the Gospels. I believe in what the New Testament proclaims. I believe that if we all lived according to what that message is this would be a world free of fear and war and violence; I believe it would be a much better world for all.

I also believe, based on what I have seen in my life, that such goodness is nowhere to be found in "nature," human or not, that its origin then is not of this world.

I also believe that such goodness is eternally valid for all times and across all human divides, that is is a universal (catholic) truth and that those who profess such faith and hope preach true (orthodox) faith for humanity.

Kosta: Again, you are missing the point: it's the message, the lesson that we read in the Gospels, in particular, and the Bible in general where it is Chirst-like, that is our guide, and not objective truth of the story.

FK: I think I understand your point alright, and I disagree with it. If you throw out the truth of it, and rely only on what you perceive as "the message", THEN the message is whatever you want it to be.

Throwing out what truth? If the story is true but the message isn't, what good is that for us to follow? If the story is not true but the message is a lesson in truth, that is okay, it still proclaims truth that we can imitate for the betterment of the world.

We all rely on our "perception," FK. If you don't perceive the world through what you read and hear and know then show me some proof otherwise. Protestant Christians like to use "I was on my way to Damascus" card because it gives them that self-proclaimed "legitimacy" which only the naive and otherwise challenged can accept on word alone.

That's why Paul is so near and dear to Protestants and Baptists. They make the same unsubstantiated claims. But that doesn't mean Paul does not teach the Christian message of love and mercy.

You demonstrate this by reducing all scripture to either being false or complying with your personal concept of what you think God should be like (in this case ONLY the verses in the Gospels that you like). If you accepted the historicity of scriptures you would not have the freedom to do that.

What historicity of the Scripture? Biblical historicity is an oxymoron. Biblical archeology is a dead science. It is in fact a colossal failure. The Bible also fails when it comes to what we know about the world, the biology, botany, physics, etc.

We have already rehashed the "extraordinary proofs for extraordinary claims" failure of the Bible, because the entire historical and scientific "veracity" of the Bible is based on what you or anyone else personally believes. There is nothing objectively true about a book itself. It's veracity is purely subjective, base don perception of the one who reads it, and reflects one's a priori personal or "spiritual" disposition.

It is not I who thinks what God should be like, the Bible tells us that Jesus is the incarnate Logos. If that's how He appeared to the world then is it wrong to believe that that's how God wanted us to see Him or hear Him? Now, Christians believe in Christ as the image of God. Maybe others believe He is a burning bush. If so they are not Christians. But we already know that.

This is really not very difficult to understand FK. Christians follow Christ. People--->Christ--->Father. He is our Filter. What passes Him is true, what doesn't is false. Those who consider Christ only one of the "ingredients" in the big biblical soup are not Christians. To them Christ is one "flavor" added to other flavors. To us, Christ of the Gospels is the soup, the real food, and nourishment, and everything else is garnish.

“”The theology behind the Eucharist is an invention of man. The Bible is the work of God.””

Prove it?

I can show countless Eucharist Miracles,in fact,fk,I have prayed during Adoration and been witness to some.

Than of course we have these one's as well...

Eucharist Miracle video
http://www.dsanford.com/miraclehost.html

Miracle of Lanciano
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

Eucharistic Miracles of the World
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

Stfassisi-””The Eucharist is the same Christ full present in Bodily form who was born Mary,who performed miracles and who is the second person of the Holy Trinity.””

FK-If it's the same Christ, then why aren't you literally vampiric cannibals? :) Jesus was not literally present in the bread and wine at the Last Supper, He was just literally present.

That's what the heretics who persecuted the early Christians thought. These people were of the belief of those who no longer followed Christ when He said "you must eat My Flesh" This puts you in the same boat as the persecutors and those who walked away from our Blessed Lord .

If they had prevailed there would be no New Testament.

Also, you limit Christ, who is God in being in one place at a time physically since you think He could not be in the Eucharist at the same time of the last supper.

I guess you believe God has no power to be anywhere else besides inside your head and how you interpret the Bible against the most humble loving people in Christian History.

Your lack of humility and respect for the Martyr's and Saints is stunning!

FK- “”Bible-believing Christian movement was very reasonably theologically in sync.””

Oh Brother! What nonsense!

You're headed down the path of destruction ,Dear Brother. I feel this very deeply

I'll pray for your heart to be changed during Adoration on Friday

I'll leave you with this very good article on Eucharist and thee error of protestantism.

from
http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/realpresence1.html
Part I - Introduction:

All too often in the Protestant philosophy, truth involves a head count of scholars. Since the very nature of truth is not one of change at the whim of the majority opinion; logically truth cannot be determined in this manner. That truth is not subject to change is at the very core of the words of St. Paul in Galatians:

If we or an angel from heaven preach to you a Gospel other than that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema, I said it before and I say it again, if anyone preaches to you a Gospel other than that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [1]

This would be a meaningless statement if the doctrinal truths, which Paul had preached initially, were capable of being changed or “modified” with the times. Notice also that there is no time limit on this condemnation, which indicates that it is still in force. Anathema means accursed. Therefore, Paul is condemning with a curse those who teach differently than the Gospel taught by the Apostles be it an angel from heaven, an Apostle, etc: it did not matter. This very concept is at the heart of the disagreements between Christians. The most glaring differences are between Protestants and Apostolic Christians. (Catholics and Eastern Churches although the Anglicans are more in the camp of the Apostolic Churches than Protestants in many ways.) The heart of the dispute is that each believes the other to be wrong and this error cannot be seen as a slight one.

In the case of the Eucharist you have among the most serious of divides in Christendom because rather than a difference in degree you have a case of diametric opposites in looking at this issue. Apostolic Churches believe that the Eucharist is the actual flesh of Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Protestants claim that this is false. Anglicans and Lutherans from the Protestant side also believe in some form of Our Lord’s Real Presence in the Eucharist so in this case side with the Historic Churches. The general position of the Protestant churches is to claim that this belief is “unbiblical.” Despite possible appearances otherwise, this is not a minor matter because one side is in serious error and both sides cannot be right (that would violate the Law of Non Contradiction). The reader must ask themselves therefore which side is the “biblical” side and which side is the “unbiblical side”. That is the purpose of this essay: to seek to shed some light on answering that very question.

The intention of this essay is to demonstrate from a biblical, logical, grammatical, and historical standpoint that the doctrine of the Real Presence as understood by Catholics, the Eastern Churches, Anglicans, and Lutherans is the only correct position. In doing this, the Evangelical-Reformed position will by default be shown as a position condemned under the aforementioned anathema of St. Paul. The understanding of the Apostolic Churches is not only heavily Scriptural but indeed it was the only position ever held in the Church from the time of the Apostles up until the ninth century where a brief dispute resolved the issue until the eleventh century when the Evangelical-Reformed position makes its historical debut. (From there with a few exception the position was still nearly unanimous Christendom until the sixteenth century.)

Some Protestant apologists claim that not all the Fathers took a literal view of the Real Presence. This view is without the slightest shred of doubt a historically untenable one. This essay will seek to address errors common to Protestant presuppositions when it comes to reading the Fathers writings, and also the flawed dichotomous mindset that impairs many Protestants from being honest with what the records of history reveal to us. (And by extension the inability oftentimes of Protestants to let the Bible say what it really says.) The essay will conclude with considering the lack of historical verification for the views held by the Fundamentalists, the Evangelicals, or the Reformed Protestants. The difference between transubstantiation and consubstantiation will also be touched on but only in brief as these terms but why these terms are irrelevant when it comes to the doctrine of the Real Presence as it existed in the early Church. But before discussing methods of interpretation, a bit of groundwork needs to be put in place so we will do that and follow it up with a thorough examination of John 6.

Part II - Addressing Protestant Text Criticism of John 6

It is a general rule (though not an absolute one) that if a certain passage or statement is repeated three or more times in Scripture, that this is an indication to take it literally. (Unless there is a reasonable excuse to do this.) What would be a “reasonable” reason not to do this??? For starters, any interpretation that has a consensus in historical exegesis (or at least overwhelming/dominant support) can be considered a “reasonable” interpretation. Any interpretation that cannot show a degree of consensus in early belief could logically be dismissed as an “unreasonable” interpretation if it differs markedly from those that proceeded it. Modes of speaking like Hebraic idiom whereby a statement is repeated twice in succession generally indicates that a certain statement is an important statement. (Our Lord prefacing certain statements with “Amen Amen” would be an example of this.) If you have a message stated two or three times in a slightly different manner - as in 1 Corinthians 6:11 - this also lends itself to a greater likelihood that it is to be taken in a literal manner either in content or in message being conveyed. These are just a few of the important elements that go into the proper understanding of the time period, modes, customs, languages, types of literature, assumptions, etc. germane to the time of composition and to the mindset of the initial target audience to insure the greatest accuracy in proper exegesis.

Although Protestants are usually considered to be more “biblically based” than Catholics, in reality it is the converse that is true. Nowhere is this fact more evident than in the case of John 6. But in truth the manner whereby most Protestants interpret John 6 is simply par for the course with the manner in which they interpret the entire Bible. In general when it comes to literal Biblical exegesis, it is almost always the Catholics who take the words of Our Lord in the Gospels literally when engaged in a doctrinal disputes with Protestants. The latter tend towards convoluted and legalistic interpretations that are alien to the Hebrew world-view from which the Scriptures were written.

Protestants indeed often interpret the literal words of Our Lord in light of St. Paul - especially with regard to the Romans and Galatians epistles. On the other hand, Catholics interpret the words of St. Paul, St. Peter, and other writers of the epistles in light of the literal Word of Our Lord Himself. In John 6, all of the previously mentioned characteristics are present (repetition, Hebraic idiom, etc.) so the proper interpretation should be easy - even if what is being said is difficult to comprehend. Among the prevalent Apostolic interpretations of John 6 is a reference to the Eucharist in literal language. This position on the Eucharist is that it is the literal flesh and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ (in sacramental form). Indeed the Apostolic view - which to some extent the Anglicans and Lutherans shate with the Apostolic Churches - is one that lacked any significant dissent for an entire millennium after Pentecost. Let us now look at John 6 and the underlying Greek grammar for a greater understanding of this passage:

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. [2]

In the above seven verses there are eight explicit references to eating the flesh of Our Lord made by Him to the crowds. Their response is first incredulity (which is perfectly understandable) and then disgust. Can anyone find any other passage in the entire Bible where there is so much repetition on a single point??? Let us look at the underlying structure of the Greek words behind the statement for a better understanding of the passage. First we must note that from the actual words used the literal rendering makes the most sense. Our Lord uses the realistic expressions that His flesh is “real food” and His blood is “real drink.” The Greek word ajlhqhvß (transliterated alethes) is used in verse 55 and it is defined as follows:

Phonetic Spelling al-ay-thace’
Definition

1.true

2.loving the truth, speaking the truth, truthful [3]

The King James translates this word as “indeed”

For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed (KJV) [4]

So a literal rendering of Our Lord’s flesh being “food indeed” and his blood being “drink indeed” is the definition that must take primacy of position. Therefore, it must be held unless a rock solid reason can be shown otherwise. There is no definition of alethes that implies anything but the truth in some form. This is not consistent with taking the statement in a purely figurative manner at all. But consider how many self-proclaimed literalists all of a sudden become very allegorical when this passage is discussed. The use of the word alethes is not consistent with an allegorical interpretation at all. From there we can move onto the verbs used for “eat.”

The Greek words for “eat” also bear noting since they are important for a proper exegesis of this passage. The two words of note are phago and trogo. According to the KJV Interlinear Bible Lexicon, the meanings of these words are as follows.

First we have phago used in verses 49-53.

Favgomai (transliterated as phago)
Phonetic Spelling - fag’-o

Parts of Speech - Verb

Definition

1.to eat

2.to eat (consume) a thing

a.to take food, eat a meal

b.metaph. to devour, consume [5]

Here are the relevant passages from the Gospel of John where this word is used:

In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat.
But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.

Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?

When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?

(Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover. [6]

Would anyone claim that phago in any of these uses is not a literal eating as opposed to a metaphorical “consumption”??? Remember of the two definitions of phago, the first means to eat as in “I ate lunch” and the second means “to consume” with the first sub definition (a) being a literal eating of food. Only the second sub definition (b) means to metaphorically consume something. So we must recognize that the primary definitions are to be presumed in all cases except where they can be shown to obviously not be the case. Having noted that, we can proceed to the verses of controversy between historic sacramental Christianity and anti-historical, anti-sacramental Christianity. Here are the verses in dispute:

This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. [7]

The reader needs to ask themselves why we shouldimmediately not take the literal meaning of phago here. What sort of rationale does the opponent of such a rendering give??? Would it be the same indignation of the Jews in the same situation by chance??? Observe how Our Lord responds to their objections and ask yourself if this is the response of someone who intends a metaphorical meaning of his words to be conveyed:

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live forever. [8]

The word for “eat” in the above passages is not phago but instead is trogo. Here is what the same KJV Interlinear Bible Lexicon says about trogo and its different meanings:

Trwvgw (transliterated as trogo)
Phonetic Spelling - tro’-go

Parts of Speech - Verb

Definition

1.to gnaw, crunch, chew

a.of animals feeding

b.of men

2.to eat [9]

The first thing that one who looks closely at the above definitions is that none of these definitions is metaphorical at all. (They are instead literal renderings.) The primary definition is to crunch or chew, which is about as literal as you can get. From the actions of the Jews after Our Lord spoke the passages in John 6:54-58, it seems that we can determine what the intended meaning was and it was clearly the primary definition. For if it was otherwise, the reactions of the crowd would not make sense.

Other NT usages of trogo are as follows:

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark.
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. [10]

From these passages it can be logically deduced that John 6 in its primary sense can only be properly understood if it is taken literally. The following points underscore this assessment:

The Jews understood Our Lord to be speaking literally.
His disciples understood Our Lord to be speaking literally.
Despite their incredulity, Jesus keeps emphasizing it without ever telling them that he was speaking figuratively. If a non-literal meaning was intended, it would be illogical to keep re-emphasizing it with greater force throughout the discourse as Our Lord did.
The change in verbs from phago (which generally means to eat literally) is later replaced with trogo which is a much more explicit verb (denoting a gnawing or crunching) would only make sense if it was emphasizing a literal meaning. Otherwise, Our Lord the greatest teacher this world has ever and will ever know really blew it big time here in explaining Himself clearly and unambiguously.
The crowds left Our Lord and he never corrected their misunderstanding if it was a misunderstanding (as he did in every instance where his parables were misunderstood). Therefore it must not have been a misunderstanding except in terms of HOW Our Lord would give them His flesh to eat as “food indeed.”
The Apostles themselves understood Our Lord to be speaking literally. (Indeed the text makes it clear that they were dumbfounded.)

It is also worth noting that the setting of the scene casts some interesting characteristics that favour a literal understanding of the text. One short but significant verse at the very beginning of the chapter highlights the setting and circumstances:

Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews was near. [11]

In light of this passage we should consider the background of the Passover for this point would not have been mentioned if it was not significant for understanding the context of the passage. Therefore, let us briefly consider what happened at Passover in those days. At every Passover, the Jews ate a lamb without blemish not in a figurative manner but in a real literal sense. If you are wondering why this is so significant, consider the reference to Our Lord by John the Baptist earlier in the same Gospel of John:

Again the next day John was standing there, and two of his disciples.
And looking upon Jesus as he walked by, he said, “Behold the lamb of God!!!”

And the two disciples heard him speak and they followed Jesus. [12]

It is interesting that John makes note of these extra events. If Jesus is the Lamb of God (as Catholics say at every Mass) than the Passover imagery in John 6:4 has to imply something significant or else it would not be there. It seems to evoke a bit of foreshadowing in 6:4 for what would come later on in that chapter (the discourse on the Eucharist). At least this can be said to be a reasonable interpretation of the text. We know that the Jews ate the lamb without blemish at Passover. Could it not logically be inferred based on all of the grammar analysis above that the sinless Son of God, the Lamb of God without blemish would also be eaten literally in a New Covenant Passover???

Now it is true that taken alone without the above supporting evidence you may be able to state that thus far I have been engaging in “exegesis gymnastics” certainly. With all of the supporting evidence listed above pointing clearly and unambiguously to a literal interpretation of John 6, how can anyone honestly hold to a “metaphorical rendering”??? Considering all of the evidence that clearly points to the opposite interpretation. (Including the fact that Our Lord emphasized nine times that He would have to be eaten: find any other passage so clearly attested to in all of Scripture.) The reader needs to ask themselves how this interpretation can be seen as anything but a rational one (or at least as “rational” as the incomprehensible mysteries of God can be to us feeble-minded mortals) and the “metaphorical” interpretation taken by most Protestants not be seen as not only “illogical” but also patently unbiblical. Perhaps this is a good time to point to the understanding of the Eucharist in Church history.

There is not one single Church Father that understood this passage in a purely figurative manner. It is true that some Fathers (including Origin and Augustine) entertained a symbolic interpretation to coincide with the literal rendering. However, none of them is on record as not believing in a literal Real Presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist. (And all of them speak of the Eucharist as Our Lord’s literal body on more than one occasion in very clear unambiguous terms.) This factor will be examined more in detail in part three of this essay and particularly in the appendix section; however but first a challenge needs to be issued to anyone who still has any doubts whatsoever as to the literal rendering of John 6 as Catholics and all Apostolic Christians believe:

The Challenge:

Anyone who still has doubts or is scoffing over what has been covered above is asked to please provide one other example in the Gospels where Jesus did not explain a difficulty at least to his Apostles. It is clear from John 6 that He did not do this at all. Are there any other examples in the Scriptures of the Lord taking this approach with His Apostles??? If there is not then this would firmly underscoresthe strong evidence that the literal understanding held by everyone at the discourse is the correct one. As we will see in the next section - and particularly in the Appendix section later on, the evidence in favour of a literal reading from a text standpoint (much as the grammar standpoint already covered) is overwhelmingly positive and definitive.

Addressing a “Text Critic” on John 6:

It is very interesting that there are those who ignore the witness of history and instead think that text criticism is how you uncover the meaning of a term. I personally believe that the skepticism that goes into such endeavours is a pale and mutually destructive attempt to hide from the obvious so I seldom employ the method myself. However, there are times when a “scholarly” type attempts to bring this method out and thus abandon all other means of ascertaining the truth on a doctrine or a Scriptural interpretation. Such a view is ignorant because it acknowledges (albeit implicitly) that early Church consensus on a doctrine is not the working of the Holy Spirit as promised in John 16:13 but instead such a consensus is erroneous. This belief in essence makes the words of Our Lord in promising both His guidance unto the consummation of the world (Matt. 28:20) and also the dwelling of the Holy Spirit forever (John 14:16-18; 16:13) to be meaningless. I had an exchange with a Protestant (in early October of 1999) on text criticism who made the following statement in arguing against a literal rendering of John 6 (after I had shown him reams of Patristic evidence refuting his symbolic or metaphorical view):

“Shawn’s handling of my point on the Greek is weak. Again, we are thrown assertions with no citations. My point here remains, why does John employ sarx and not soma???”
As is common for those who are overly critical, this individual failed to address any of the evidence I brought out to substantiate my view. Instead he quoted exclusively from modern text scholars. Are we supposed to presume that there are no polemical text scholars out there??? Someone can always find an ally to support their positions but that fact alone does not ipso facto make their position a credible one. Nevertheless, as this individual made an interesting statement, we should ask ourselves if it really prove his case. (He argued at length that John 6 is figurative and not literal based on the word sarx.) As has already been explained, the Greek word phago used in verses 49-53 means to eat. It is generally used as a literal verb. Also, alethes in verse 55 means “actual” and the Greek word trogo used in verses 54, 56, 57, and 58 translated as “eat” is a very graphic term. (It means literally “to gnaw, crunch, or chew” and is a much more literal and forceful verb then phago.) It is the verb that Our Lord reverts to using when his audience is incredulous at his use of phago (”how can this man give us his flesh to eat”???). These are hardly figurative words being used at all but in the interest of fairness, let us consider what the KJV Inerlinear Bible Lexicon says on the matter. (And yes I deliberately used the KJV lest I be accused of using one with “Catholic bias”.) Here is what the source says about sarx and soma starting with the latter term:
Soma is defined as follows:

Sw’ma (transliterated as soma)
Phonetic Spelling so’-mah

Noun Neuter

Definition

1.the body both of men or animals

a.a dead body or corpse

b.the living body

1.of animals

2.the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies)

3.is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body

a.so in the NT of the church

4.that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself [13]

Believe it or not, this text critic made our case all by himself!!! The reason soma was not used is because it would refer to Our Lord’s body as the very flesh He was wearing at the very moment he was speaking to the crowd - if you use the only applicable definition which is 1b. So it seems very obvious why soma was not used. But is the use of sarx really an argument against a literal rendering of John 6??? Sarx is defined as follows:

Savarx (transliterated as sarx) [14]

Savarx (sarx) is a noun of feminine gender. It appears a number of times in the NT. Among its appearances are twelve references in the Gospel of John and seven references in John 6 alone. The times sarx is used in John 6 are as follows: John 6: 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 63. As it permeated the very text we are examining, let us look one by one at the definitions of this word.

Savarx (or sarx) is defined as follows:

1.flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts [15]

The first definition is exactly what the Jews referred to when they were incredulous. (How can this man give us his FLESH to eat???). It seems amusing that Jesus kept saying exactly the same thing and they still took his words literally. Or maybe it is not so amusing but is instead is something very serious. Here is the second definition of the term:

2.the body
a.the body of a man

b.used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship

1.born of natural generation

c.the sensuous nature of man, “the animal nature”

1.without any suggestion of depravity

2.the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin

3.the physical nature of man as subject to suffering [16]

Perhaps “this IS my body” applies for the definition of 2a. 2b also indirectly affirms a literal interpretation. 2c is the arguable definition of John 6:63 in that the Jews were too carnally minded to comprehend how the literal words of Jesus could be possibly understood in the spiritual (yet real) sense that He intended. But none of the second definition supports a figurative or symbolic understanding of John 6. Let us consider the other definitions now:

3. a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast [17]

This definition does not apply to either position but if it did, the support would still be literal as living creatures are literal and not metaphorical. Finally, we have the fourth definition of the term:

4.the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God [18]

This is a possible argument for John 6:63 but is in no way an argument favouring the Evangelical position in the slightest. In fact, not one definition of sarx can be said to support a figurative interpretation except (with some serious stretching) perhaps 2c or 2c2. It seems eminently logical to presume that the repetition of the term in light of the literal understanding of the crowds is intended to reinforce their understanding of what is being said. At the very least there is no good reason whatsoever to reject the literal interpretation of the passage.

Now for the seven uses of sarx within John 6:

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. [19]

When you consider the meanings of the underlying verbs phago and trogo - along with the meaning of alethes (true, real), can it possibly get any clearer than this??? The very lexicon definitions definitively refute the primary Protestant Evangelical position in every usage including the following one:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. [20]

Unless the skeptics can cite one example in all of Scripture where “spirit” is synonymous with “symbolic”, they lose this debate. (And I will go so far as to assert that this cannot be done.) For that reason, John 6:63 in no way is contrary to a literal rendering of the previous six examples. Besides, will an Evangelical claim that Our Lord’s flesh profited nothing??? If they did than the entire Incarnation and Passion/Death of Our Saviour for the redemption of mankind was in vain. There is no foundation in logic or reason that supports the view that John 6:63 can possibly render the rest of the discourse in a metaphorical way. All of the foundational evidence already supplied points to a literal interpretation without exception. And there are more arguments than just those to substantiate this thesis.

I highlighted the seven examples and if you look carefully, the first six refer to the flesh of Our Lord and the one on John 6:63 is differentiating between THE spirit and THE flesh. The latter is not the same context as the prior six passages at all. John 6:63 is more congruently understood as Our Lord telling the Jews that they were thinking too carnally and not spiritually enough. He would not hack off His limbs and feed them the flesh He was wearing at that moment and in that form. No, he would feed them spiritually His very flesh and blood in the form of a sacramentum (mystery) which He promulgated at the Last Supper. Their error was not in misunderstanding what He said but instead how He would do what He said He would do. Any other interpretation involves seeking to explain away Our Lord’s literal words, which one should never do except as an absolute last resort. And in the Bible there is seldom ever a need for such a last resort yet it is so often the first one that Protestants go to in defending the systematic theologies of their founders from being contradicted by the literal words of Scripture. (They do this most notably with the Gospel accounts.)

Let us look at the other examples of savarx from the NT. There are 33 uses of the word sarx in the Gospels, Acts, and the other writings of the Evangelist John (including five non-John 6 uses in John’s Gospel). Surely there ought to be enough in those books to make my case. Let us address them now starting with the Gospel of John:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [21]

Is this “metaphorical” flesh???

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. [22]

Was Jesus’ flesh “metaphorical” or “symbolic” here???

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. [23]

Do these usages imply a metaphorical or symbolic flesh??? I do not think so.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. [24]

Is Peter’s flesh not literal flesh???

And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh [25]

The one flesh here can in some ways be said to be metaphorical. However, when spouses become “one flesh” it does at times involve conception of a child which is human after all. So it seems reasonable to assert that this is a literal rendering as well in that light.

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. [26]

Same as the previous comment.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. [27]

Who would claim that these are anything but literal renderings of sarx???

And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak. [28]

These verses are duplicates of the ones from Matthews Gospel. Thus far, every usage of sarx in the Gospels supports a literal interpretation of that term in John 6:

And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. [29]

Surely no one would claim that these verses are “metaphorical” because they obviously are not.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. [30]

None of the uses in Acts supports the common Protestant interpretation of sarx either. Since every example in the Gospels and Acts ouside of John 6 is literal, then it makes sense to read John 6 literally also. To do otherwise is purely arbitrary on the part of the interpreter. If such a pattern also surfaces in John’s epistles than that should cinch it for anyone but the willfully ignorant that the uses in John 6 are unmistakably literal ones.

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. [31]

Sarx is used to emphasize literal flesh here.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God [32]

Again, Jesus did come in the literal flesh right???

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. [33]

If this is taken metaphorically than it refutes the Incarnation. Obviously it is a literal intent then.

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. [34]

Same comments as for 1 John 4:3.

And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. [35]

In line with the OT figurative usages of “eat my flesh” (see Deut 28:53ff; 32:42; 2 Sam 23:17; Psalm 27:2; Isaiah 9:18- 20; 49:26; Ezek 5:10ff; Bar 2:3; Micah 3:1-4) these speak of assaulting or reviling someone. So if “eating my flesh” is figurative in John 6, the meaning would be to “assault” or to “revile” Our Lord in order to gain eternal life. (That is how the term is used in Revelation and the list of other OT references above.) This meaning would claim that to gain eternal life we must repudiate Our Lord. Such a view makes no sense and therefore it must be false.

Summary of Part II:

The interpretive concept of repetition and solemnity (Amen amen translated as “verily verily” in verse 53) and the principle of repetition (over seven and arguably nine times between verses 48 and 58) commands a literal interpretation of this or else no part of the Bible does.

Althes in verse 55 means “actual” which supports a literal rendering of John 6 and not a figurative or symbolic one. “My flesh is actual food indeed and my blood is actual drink indeed” is hardly the statement of someone making a parabolic statement unless they are a lousy teacher and Our Lord was the best of teachers.

Phago (in verses 49-53) is almost always used literally which lends further evidence to taking Our Lord at His word when he refers to eating his flesh in these verses.

Trogo in verses 54, 56, 57, ane 58 means “to gnaw or chew” which refutes a figurative or symbolic rendering of John 6 and places a heavy emphasis on a literal interpretation. (Because it is not a verb used in a non-literal sense anywhere in the New Testament.) Therefore, why should it be applied that way here??? The only viable explanation for this glaring inconsistency is some perverse need to defend Protestant systematic theology. And that brings us to the Protestant need to explain away the literal words of the Scriptures in so many areas.

Our Lord’s literal words anathematize the Protestant position so frequently that there are Protestants who try to dismiss Our Lord’s words as belonging to a “previous dispensation” to focus on Paul’s writings. In short the Gospels are not actually in the Gospels according to them. And these kinds of people have the temerity to call themselves “Bible Christians!!!” A “Bible Christian” recognizes that when Our Lord says something it is to be taken literally almost all the time. Any other view makes the Gospel subordinate to the whims of mere men. Finally, we come to the uses of the term sarx in the Gospels, Acts, the epistles of John, and Revelation.

On Sarx (flesh):
Matthew: All five renderings are unmistakably literal

Mark: All three renderings are unmistakably literal

Luke: Both renderings are unmistakably literal

Acts: All four renderings are unmistakably literal

John: The five renderings outside of John 6 are unmistakably literal

John 1: The three uses in John 1 are unmistakably literal

John 2: Obviously a literal rendering is intended here also.

With the Book of Revelation, all three verses are clearly metaphorical or symbolic renderings. They all take into account reviling or injuring someone by “eating their flesh.” Like the OT references cited earlier, the literal rendering cannot be supported and in all cases the metaphorical rendering involves injuring the party whose flesh is being “eaten.”

In short, of the thirty-three references, we have three obviously figurative usages which clearly support the literal rendering of John 6. Of the thirty other verses, we have three from 1 John that support the literal position (as well as the one from 2 John). All of the verses from Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Acts support the literal position along with all five non John 6 renderings of sarx. Therefore, the only coherent conclusion is that the seven references to sarx in John 6 are also to be taken literally. If we factor in the other Greek words mentioned which strongly reinforce the literal meaning of the text (althes, phago, and trogo) and the literal position is bolstered even stronger.

If we take into account the Passover imagery and themes as well, the case for a literal understanding of the Real Presence is bolstered yet further. For (i) the Jews ate the lamb at Passover and (ii) Jesus is the Lamb of God who (iii) specifically stated around Passover time that He would have to be eaten. He also (iv) at the Last Supper declared the bread and wine He blessed to be His Body and Blood and told the Apostles to eat and drink them.

The literal rendering is also the primary one according to the Protestant KJV Lexicon for the word sarx. (Definitions 1 and 2 refer unmistakably to physical flesh.) Therefore, the literal rendering must be adopted especially considering the overwhelming evidence listed above. In light of all of this evidence and taking into account Church history (which will be examined later in this essay), the Protestant symbolic rendering of John 6 is clearly unbiblical when viewed from every conceivable angle. By contrast, the Apostolic position is supported by all of the evidence without exception. How than can anyone logically claim that an interpretation that differs from the Historic literal interpretation of this passage can be anything but the very different Gospel condemned under an anathema by the Apostle Paul (1 Gal. 1:8-9)???

Bibliography:

[1] Galatians 1:8-9

[2] John 6:51-58

[3] KJV Interlinear Bible with Greek Lexicon: Definitions given for Ajlhqhvß (or alethes)

[4] John 6:55

[5] KJV Interlinear Bible with Greek Lexicon: Definitions given for the verb “Favgomai” (or phago)

[6] John 4:31-33; 6:5,23,26,31,49; 18:28

[7] John 6:50-53

[8] John 6:54-58

[9] KJV Interlinear Bible with Greek Lexicon: Definitions given for the verb “Trwvgw” (or trogo)

[10] Matthew 24:38 John 13:18

[11] John 6:4

[12] John 1:35-37

[13] KJV Interlinear Bible with Greek Lexicon: Definitions given for the noun neuter “Sw’ma” (or soma)

[14] KJV Interlinear Bible with Greek Lexicon: Heading and subheading given for the feminine noun “Savarx” ( or sarx)

[15] KJV Interlinear Bible with Greek Lexicon: First definition given for the feminine noun “Savarx” (or sarx)

[16] KJV Interlinear Bible with Greek Lexicon: Second definition given for the feminine noun “Savarx” (or sarx)

[17] KJV Interlinear Bible with Greek Lexicon: Third definition given for the feminine noun “Savarx” (or sarx)

[18] KJV Interlinear Bible with Greek Lexicon: Fourth definition given for the feminine noun “Savarx” (or sarx)

[19] John 6:51-56

[20] John 6:63

[21] John 1:13

[22] John 1:14

[23] John 3:6; 8:15; 17:2

[24] Matthew 16:17

[25] Matthew 19:5

[26] Matthew 19:6

[27] Matthew 24:22; 26:41

[28] Mark 10:8; 13:20; 14:38

[29] Luke 3:6; 24:39

[30] Acts 2:17,26,30-31

[31] 1John 2:16

[32] 1John 4:2

[33] 1John 4:3

[34] 2John 1:7

[35] Revelation 17:16; 19:18,21

Other Notes:

The Scripture citations were taken from the King James Version of the Bible except where noted. An online version of the King James Bible can be read at the following link: http://www.biblegateway.com/
Linking to this site does not in any way whatsoever constitute an endorsement of this website.

The KJV New Testament Lexicon definitions of “ajlhqhvß” (or “althes”) were obtained at the following link: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=227&version=kjv

The KJV New Testament Lexicon definitions of “favgomai” (or “phago”) were obtained at the following link: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5315&version=kjv

The KJV New Testament Lexicon definitions of “trwvgw” (or “trogo”) were obtained at the following link:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5176&version=kjv

The KJV New Testament Lexicon definitions of “savarx” (or “sarx”) were obtained at the following link:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4561&version=kjv

FK-””AMEN, Forest Keeper!
I'd encourage you to write a book””

It would be far better for Fk’s soul to try and live the following,rather than write a book that Jack Chick and others have already done.

I include myself in the following prayer as well....

Litany of Humility

O Jesus! meek and humble of heart, Hear me.
From the desire of being esteemed,

Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being loved...
From the desire of being extolled ...
From the desire of being honored ...
From the desire of being praised ...
From the desire of being preferred to others...
From the desire of being consulted ...
From the desire of being approved ...
From the fear of being humiliated ...
From the fear of being despised...
From the fear of suffering rebukes ...
From the fear of being calumniated ...
From the fear of being forgotten ...
From the fear of being ridiculed ...
From the fear of being wronged ...
From the fear of being suspected ...

That others may be loved more than I,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be esteemed more than I ...
That, in the opinion of the world,
others may increase and I may decrease ...
That others may be chosen and I set aside ...
That others may be praised and I unnoticed ...
That others may be preferred to me in everything...
That others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should…

Correction

FK should read Dr E's quote instead””AMEN, Forest Keeper!
I'd encourage you to write a book””

It would be far better for Fk’s soul to try and live the following,rather than write a book that Jack Chick and others have already done.

I include myself in the following prayer as well....

Litany of Humility

O Jesus! meek and humble of heart, Hear me.
From the desire of being esteemed,

Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being loved...
From the desire of being extolled ...
From the desire of being honored ...
From the desire of being praised ...
From the desire of being preferred to others...
From the desire of being consulted ...
From the desire of being approved ...
From the fear of being humiliated ...
From the fear of being despised...
From the fear of suffering rebukes ...
From the fear of being calumniated ...
From the fear of being forgotten ...
From the fear of being ridiculed ...
From the fear of being wronged ...
From the fear of being suspected ...

That others may be loved more than I,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be esteemed more than I ...
That, in the opinion of the world,
others may increase and I may decrease ...
That others may be chosen and I set aside ...
That others may be praised and I unnoticed ...
That others may be preferred to me in everything...
That others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should…

From your posted article: Our Lord in light of St. Paul - especially with regard to the Romans and Galatians epistles. On the other hand, Catholics interpret the words of St. Paul, St. Peter, and other writers of the epistles in light of the literal Word of Our Lord Himself.

That's exactly what we have been discussing here on this Forum. They try to mould Christ accoridng to everyone else in the Bible instead of the other way around.

A sect of followers of Paul, Paulines.

ping

AMEN, Forest Keeper! I'd encourage you to write a book...

And I was told by the Reformed that the Bible is all one needs, that it is perfect and that it is perfectly perspicuous. Why write a book then? because "perfectly perspicuous" isn;t really perfectly perspicuous as is isn't always is? LOL! Or to eclipse the Bible? Or to convert the "reprobate?" Or for one's own glory and pride?

I always wondered why Protestants, who swear the Bible is all one needs, write more books about the Bible then any other sect and cult. Is it for money or for self-aggradizement, or both?

But I've come to realize those 20 seconds of utter helplessness in the face of black death was more "real" than anything I experience on a daily basis. Our physical lives are a shadow-play, ephemeral and fleeting. We live by the will of another. And everything physical surrounding that one monumental fact is a parade of smoke and vapour and illusions and pretense and our own vain strivings. We live and breathe and have our being by and for and through Jesus Christ. We are spiritual beings, temporarily taking up residence on earth.

Amen, and thank you for your testimony. I can't imagine what a terrifying experience that must have been like, or the sense of loss afterward. I hope you were able to salvage many of the irreplaceables. Thank God that you had Him to lean on. I don't know how lost people get through situations like that. Those experiences really do put our perspectives right, just like you said.