Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Do you figure that the elect are just a group one simply decides to sign up for? Let's check the scriptures:
Isa 42:1 : 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. KJV
Isa 45:4 : 4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. KJV
Rom 8:29-30 : 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. KJV
In all of these passages, Who does it sound like the decider is? The elect are determined SOLEY by God alone:
John 1:12-13 : 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. KJV
Mark 13:20 : 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. KJV
So, if man is the decider, then there really is no concept of the elect at all, and the Bible is wrong.
My error in my post #471. The offending sentence should have read: “I demonstrated no “great respect” for Malachi Martin. He was NOT presented as a “Catholic standard”.”
Phillip was a member of the catholic church, not the Catholic Church, which did not exist until the 4th century, except in the Orwellian “history” of the RCC.
How is Paul outside “the Church” and where are these exceptions noted in Scripture? Where in Scripture is it recored that the Lord instituted what you call “the Church” (and I call the RCC)?
All history is fraught with errors (aside from that God recorded in the Bible), as it is written by men who all have agendas. The RCC version of history is not immune to such error - and neither is the pope.
Umm, FK, we need to talk.
The verses from Isaiah don’t mean what you present them to mean.
The verses from Romans do not specify that only the elect are going to Heaven. And neither do the verses from Mark and John.
FK, you have given it a yeoman’s effort. I’ll give you points on it if you wish. You have been very persistent in trying to make sense out of nonsense. You have given all that you can in stating what the Reformed position is versus the reality of Scripture. But that dog don’t hunt.
If you’d like, I could show you where the Reformed position has gone wrong (starting with Genesis). Give up, give in and come back to God, my friend. Your compatriots are leading you down the garden path.
Anyway . . .
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I was praying all the way to Walmart and back grieving in my spirit and heart and getting some ink for my gradesheets for tomorrow. Thankfully, there were some of my favorite worship songs on the radio.
I realize that some of my cohorts may be . . . annoyed with me for the following but so be it . . . 'tis what I must do for the moment and maybe for several days or so.
I'm much more the sort of fellow who leaves the 99 and goes out in the blizzard after the one.
I don't have any realistic hope of influencing the die hard RC reps hereon or elsewehre. That is certainly a HOLY SPIRIT SIZED DIRECT FOCUS sort of job. All I can do is squirt a small water pistol toward the forest fire.
However, the bitterness, resentment, vengeance evidenced on this thread is reaching hipwader depths. That's dreadful. I don't want to be party to any excuse for that. There may come a time when I'll have to ignore such and leave the consequences to the individuals involved . . . but for now, I'm choosing to battle on another level in another manner. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, after all.
So, I'm going to spend some hours at least, if not some days and pray as much for equally fierce folks as much as or at least a significant percentage of time as much as I've spent time posting in their direction. And, to keep me tuned to that priority, I plan to do some at least partial fasting as much as lies within me to manage that.
I am gratified that my cohorts are carrying the TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL; THE TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE AND THE TRUTH OF HISTORY forward quite better than I can anyway.
I don't know if I'll read the thread or not. But I don't plan to be posting on it for some hours or days. If I feel compelled to respond, I plan to write to a Word file and sit on it for some days.
There are likely some who may tend to feel this action of mine is a definite sign of victory for their perspective or side or whatever. That would be a very serious error which they would likely seriously regret. But, that is their business between them and God.
Prayer is mightier even than the pen.
What impact my poor prayers may have is certainly God's business. And, I'll likely pray mostly in tongues so that will be even further His business. But my heart and spirit will definitely be earnestly in the prayer effort most of my waking, non-teaching hours whether at pottery or wherever. However, I have seen Him answer such prayers in past situations in very startling ways. So, may be interesting to see what surprises He may have in this prayer project.
Perhaps the only one changed or only thing changed will be me. That will be fine if that is Father's priority.
God's speed, Truth, Will, Righteousness, Priorities and focus for each reader of these poor words.
Sincerely,
Quixotically Quix.
***Have ye devolved into an idiot?***
Not that I’m aware of.
But if you would, please engage me with descriptions of the various rewards of those who are saved to Heaven.
I noted that you posted that the saved would have various rewards according to their deeds, and I wondered what those rewards might be. Scriptural support might be in order here, if you’d please.
There wouldn’t be 72 virgins a-waiting would there?
***I was praying all the way to Walmart***
Some of us just pray all the way to God.
***I don’t have any realistic hope of influencing the die hard RC reps hereon or elsewehre. That is certainly a HOLY SPIRIT SIZED DIRECT FOCUS sort of job.***
Maybe God is telling you something.
***And, I’ll likely pray mostly in tongues so that will be even further His business. ***
We’d appreciate English. Although Latin and Greek might be appropriate, since some of the Godly here understand those languages.
That’s a big good night there. I don’t want anything to erase that thought. Thanks!
***Phillip was a member of the catholic church, not the Catholic Church, which did not exist until the 4th century, except in the Orwellian “history” of the RCC.***
Phillip was a member of the Catholic Church, which came into being with the pleasure of Our Lord at Pentecost.
***How is Paul outside “the Church”***
Paul was brought into the Church by God on the road to Damascus, as differentiated from the instructions to bring individuals into the Church via baptism. God has the privilege of doing as He will - witness the thief on the cross. We do not, however, have that latitude. We must do as He has commanded us.
The Lord has instructed us to follow the Church that He has set up. You may disagree with it. That is your perogative. You may not, however, separate it from Him.
You've told us with every post that you're some kind of "non-Catholic," but I've never met a "non-Catholic" who defends the RCC with such personal and unbridled enthusiasm, and with so much disdain for those who hold the Scriptures above the doctrines of men.
And with cursing, no less.
St. Paul was writing about precisely the sort of activity you are engaging in. It is you who are actively working to divide the Body of Christ. Oh, yeah, you say you're working for right doctrine, but look at what you're sowing: pointless dissention.
"Pointless dissention?" I don't know many Protesants who view the Reformation and the differences between Rome and non-Romanists as "pointless."
Usually those who refer to Paul as St. Paul are Catholics.
Since it's been asked of me countless times, do you mind telling us what church you do attend?
MARK: How can you be judged by what someone else has done?
Well, you've just about erased the entire Gospel in that one sentence.
Congratulations.
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." -- Romans 5:9
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" -- Romans 3:24
"That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." -- Titus 3:7
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" -- Romans 5:1
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." -- 1 Peter 2:24
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." -- Romans 8:1-4"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." -- 2 Corinthians 5:21
"Peace with God through Christ" doesn't just mean Christ is our advocate who tries to persuade God to save us.
It means Christ takes on our sins and pays for every one of them so that when we stand before God to be judged we are declared "acquitted" of our sins based on Christ's payment, and not our own; on His obedience and not our own; on His righteousness and not our own.
"By whose stripes ye were healed."
AMEN!
I have no idea what that means.
That realization should sober you up. Sad, bored experience assures me that it won't, but it should.
Does the RCC haul you out on these threads when the RC posters are having difficulty defending their beliefs from Scripture, and so it's left to you to make inflammatory, personal remarks that hope to bait someone into responding with equal rancor and smarminess?
Thanks, but I'll pass. "Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools." -- Eccl. 7:9
May I present someone who disagrees with you...
"Be not afraid; only belive." -- Mark 5:36
Even when the truth is staring a person in the face, STILL they deny it.
Ah, the power of deception.
I agree. Spreading God's word leads to people seeing the truth. Interestingly, I have come across some measure of animosity by Apostolics (Latin/Orthodox) toward Protestant missionaries for doing just as you say. On another thread I was talking with an Orthodox (who at the time may or may not have been representing the beliefs of the Orthodox Church) about our missionaries in places like South America and Apostolic European countries, and he gave me the impression that once a baby is baptized in an Apostolic Church, that the Church sort of "owns" that person for the rest of his life in a spiritual sense.
I asked him if that baby grew up to be a completely lost person whether it would be better for a Protestant to witness to him about the mercy and grace of Christ, or would it be better if the Protestant missionary left him alone. He said that such a person is the Church's responsibility, whether the Church ever "finds" him or not, so it would be better for the person if the Protestant left him alone. I was rather taken aback and told him that I would certainly rather see a lost person become an Apostolic than to see him remain dead in his sins, if those were the only two choices.
Conservonator, how would you describe the Latin view on this subject? With no reference to the people praying in front of statues in the article, do you think it is wrong for Protestant missionaries to minister to faithless people in predominantly Catholic countries?
And if that was true it would be bad because ....... ?
In terms of God's TRUTH, are some parts of God's word more true than others?
But of course your original statement isn't true at all. It is only your reasonable perception from personal experience. When we Reformers practice apologetics with Apostolics we frequently quote from Paul and the OT because THAT'S where many of the disagreements are. Apostolics generally don't "like" Paul because he so often trashes your Tradition. So, we back up our objections with Paul.
In addition, Apostolics don't generally "like" the OT because they think it portrays a God that doesn't fit the Church's model. "God is love and nothing more" (by human definition) and that sort of thing. So, to illustrate the FULL revelation of God to man, we quote from the OT. Now, if you observed Reformers practicing apologetics with atheists, then you would see us quoting from the Gospels every bit as much as you ever would yourselves.
ALL scripture is God's TRUTH.
Wrong. Receiving the love of God is the key, and that love is so inextricably intertwined with His Word as found in the Holy Scriptures that they are inseparable. A person's word is so intertwined with who they are that you cannot accept the one without accepting the other.
If you have His Word as found in the Scriptures in your heart, then you have received His love. But if you reject His Word, then you have rejected His love -- and that is what matters.
And I presume that you have read the first chapter of 1 Corinthians:
And I presume that you read all the way through chapter 13 which says:
"Love rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth." [I Corinthians 13:6]
A Christian's love rejoices in the truth. What does your love rejoice in????
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