Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

email from Randall Easter | 25 January 2008 | Randall Easter

[Manfred the Wonder Dawg]

January 25, 2008

ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.

My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.

I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.

It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.

I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.

Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."

[Mad Dawg]

Sweet words. Thanks.

In the days when I said Evening Prayer daily by the Episcopal rite, Isaiah 55:6-11 was a "canticle" we used most Fridays of the year.

Isaiah. Wow.

[hosepipe]

[ Part of the Love of God in this "in-between-time" is that the pen is full of blessings. ]

Suggest you pay more attention to the memes in John ch 10.. and into ch 11.. also in Jude.. The Sheep Pen may appear to be a "protection" but it houses also the "WOLVES".. and the posuers.. i.e. shills, fakes, phonies, and weasles.. And makes "the Sheep" wonder is that really a sheep?.. As they tread on sheep dung.. and smell the ammonia..

The pasture OUTSIDE.. has none of that..

[kosta50]

Kosta: MD, there is nothing innate in human beings.

MD: No Asberger's autism? No neurological defects or anomalies? No retardation? No learning disabilities?

MadDawg, these are not "innate" characteristics that make us human. These are defects, or better yet abnormalities, exceptions. Something innate is something that is "known" (either expressly or potentially) by members of a given species as a matter of normal genetic constitution. As such innate characteristics are the rule rather than an exception.

Thus, we can say that a spider does not have to learn how to weave a web. It is "innate." There is no evidence of spiders teaching their young how to weave their web.

Human beings are born with a potential to speak, but they will not develop a language all by themselves, let alone a specific language. And without words there are no concepts. And without concepts, everything is here and now and it is a stimulus which evokes a reflex.

It is a curious thing that the Bible says nothing of God teaching Adam to speak. If anything, the Book of Genesis suggests that Adam was created with a functional speech and comprehension of whatever language God spoke to him. Moreover, Adam was created with pre-formed concepts, such as names. In Genesis, God allowed him to name all the animals (at least in one version of Genesis).

Adam's descendants are born without a functional speech or comprehension. Everything must be learned.

[kosta50]

(I'm assuming your post is in response to what I wrote about psychopaths and conscience?)

So you deny synderesis and argue that our entire moral consciousness is conditioned?

Yes.

I think that in a way similar to that in which Pythagoras, Euclid ... Lobachevsky make new mathematical discoveries by the application of innate abilities to perceptions, there is a sense among humans (generally, though not in every case) of justice and mercy and the rest and that ethical thought.

You would have to have a human lab specimen to show that this is so. Of course this is not possible, so we have to rely on few examples of children being raised in isolation from other humans. The few known children who were raised or survived in the wild had no speech and no concepts, no social graces, etc.

Everything from God onward had to be taught to them.

What's your take on the first arguments in Lewis's Mere Christianity?

I do realize that you are asking me for an opinion of what is considered a Christian giant of modern age. My reply to you is that I am not impressed with this work because it is lukewarm, it is pure speculation, and it is vague enough to satisfy all Christian denominations.

I am certainly deeply opposed to his concept of becoming "amalgamated" with God's nature. From an Orthodox point of view that is pure heresy. We are made god-like by grace and not by nature.

His work certainly rests on a priori assumptions stated as "facts." But this is no different than a primitive man concluding that inside a rumbling volcano there must be an angry "god."

What do you think the imago deiincludes?

Our sovereignty on earth. Who is higher than man on this planet? Humans are above all else by leaps and bounds. There is not even a chance of any competition from other species. Not even a semblance. The gap between humans and chimps (who share 99% of our genetic code) is not nearly as wide as it is abysmally deep. There is really nothing human about chimps. Nothing.

So, our thoughts are not their thoughts and our ways are not their ways. God gave us dominion on earth, in his image, as sovereigns. That's all.

But we also believe that God created us in his likeness, which we lost after the Fall. It is attaining the likeness of God, becoming Christ-like, that is true restoration of humanity to its original purpose. Two very different concepts: image and likeness of God.

[Kolokotronis]

“I am certainly deeply opposed to his concept of becoming “amalgamated” with God’s nature. From an Orthodox point of view that is pure heresy. We are made god-like by grace and not by nature.”

MD, you mustn’t think for a moment that we can share God’s “nature” or that we can by nature become like God:

“Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostases. As we have seen, those privileged to be united to God so as to become one spirit with Him - as St. Paul said, ‘He who cleaves to the Lord is one spirit with Him’ (I Cor. 6:17) - are not united to God with respect to His essence, since all theologians testify that with respect to His essence God suffers no participation.

Moreover, the hypostatic union is fulfilled only in the case of the Logos, the God-man.

Thus those privileged to attain union with God are united to Him with respect to His energy; and the ‘spirit’, according to which they who cleave to God are one with Him, is and is called the uncreated energy of the Holy Spirit, but not the essence of God...” +Gregory Palamas, Topics on Natural and Theologic Science #75

[Mad Dawg]

MD, you mustn’t think for a moment that we can share God’s “nature” or that we can by nature become like God:

Do I think that? Did I say something like that?

Whoa! What's IN this glass? I don't think I think that. I don't even think Lewis thinks that.

But the part of Lewis I was referring to was the "proof of God" from the "moral sense".

[Forest Keeper]

Everyone benefits from God's grace. By right we should all have been exterminated long ago. Yet God is long suffering. So He causes the sun to shine on the just and unjust and provides air to breathe for those who would curse His name as well as praise it.

Amen, Harley. I even go a little further (in my opinion) in that I think that even the reprobate benefit from hearing the Gospel. While they cannot be saved, I still think it could influence their choices while on earth. As WM recently discussed, within the proper Reformed perspective, the lost can choose to sin or not sin. I would think that the Gospel may even be able to affect a reprobate for better choices, that is, better choices for him, even though it won't result in salvation.

[Forest Keeper]

We really don't have a concise definition of God. We don't know God. We only "know" Him through the reality of our world, the seemingly endless universe, whatever the "voices" inside of us told us, and what we are willing to believe. Chances are we will not discover for sure what made all this in our lifetime, so we will continue to call it God, and there is no sure way of knowing if we will know about it when we are dead.

And THIS is the downfall of both the Renaissance and "New" theology and philosophy. With the above thinking, there ARE no answers to the questions that vex men's souls. Many men spent their lives searching for these answers but never got them because they refused to accept the idea that God is there (He exists), He is personal, and He is in control.

As far as the sun not rising tomorrow, there is a very real possibility of that, too, FK.

That's true. But if that happened, would you then KNOW that God is there and exists? IOW, are you like doubting Thomas, or do you "know" that while on earth you will never "know"?

[Alamo-Girl]

Your reply is evidence of the very point I have been endeavoring to drive home:

Man is not the measure of God.

We must receive all of the words of God – even if they are hard to accept and that includes not dismissing God’s words based on our own mortal reasoning or desire.

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: - Luke 24:25

In John 6, many of Christ’s disciples left Him because His words were a “hard saying” they could not accept. Theirs is not an example any Christian should follow.

As for the Law of Excluded Middle, the middle must be provable and real to show that the either/or choices are a false dilemma. The problem is proving that the third choice is real and rational….

You are telling me that predestination and free will can "co-exist" but you do not show how that is possible or even real. I take it that your definitions of predestination and free will are vastly different from standard definitions, in which case please define them.

Above, you demand that God must be “rational” – but the word “rational” comes from “ratio” which measures the relationship between two numbers. Man is variable but God is invariable.

Like the word “ratio” does not apply to a single number, the term “rational” does not apply to God; there is no ratio in Truth – there can only be a ratio to Truth. God is absolute. His ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts.

For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:8-9

Likewise, we denizens of space/time with vision and minds constrained to four perceptible dimensions (not to mention highly limited mental capability) are in no position whatsoever to tell God that we know what is "real." Jeepers, we don't even know - and can never know - the scope of "all that there is."

Your challenge:

To me a predestined world is a divine theater where different actors act out specific roles in order for the heavenly play to come to a predetermined, scripted end. The actors are not at all at any liberty to change the script or their assigned characters, even though they may wish it. There is no room for any free will on that stage.

Your statement roughly equates man’s scientific theory of “strong determinism” to “predestination.” Roughly, strong determinism says that if you knew the initial conditions of the universe - and the rules - then you would be able to determine every future event.

But God’s says:

And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. – Luke 19:40

God’s will is irresistible. Therein is predestination.

The new heaven and earth (Revelation) is not a possibility. It will be because it is God’s will, He has spoken it.

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:10

Likewise, God’s calling is without repentance.

For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. – Romans 11:29

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. – Romans 8:28-30

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, - Ephesians 1:3-5

And He also gives man free will - or freedom of movement – but it is not absolute because the will of God is irresistible.

In the passage we’ve been discussing, John 21, Peter’s ‘freedom of movement’ is love. He wasn’t being forced to love Jesus to a certain level (more than these) - but Jesus made it very clear by repeating it three times that loving Him is the necessary qualification to feed His lambs. Peter evidently had a problem keeping his priorities straight:

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. – Matthew 16:23

Likewise, when Moses was called to his mission, he balked because his speech was inadequate. God was angry with him for balking – for not trusting Him – but He “worked around” Moses’ will by giving him Aaron.

And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I [am] not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I [am] slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.

And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD? Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.

And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand [of him whom] thou wilt send.

And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, [Is] not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart. And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, [even] he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God. – Exodus 4:10-16

God’s will was irresistible, but Moses did have some “freedom of movement.”

No one and no thing can thwart the will of God. That is the bottom line.

Not Satan, not Moses, not Peter, not Herod, not Paul, not the people when Jesus entered Jerusalem, not you, not me, no one - and that includes Mary.

Now I realize that many of my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ put great stock in Mary’s submission to God’s calling. I strongly suspect her submission is why they are so compelled to venerate her as an example of how everyone ought to submit to the will of God.

But in no way could she have thwarted the will of God. If she had balked like Moses – or if she had refused – then Jesus would nevertheless had become enfleshed. With God, all things are possible.

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. - Matthew 3:9

But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. - Matthew 19:26

If anyone thinks Mary could thwart the will of God then they must also think that Satan can thwart the will of God.

But we know that his fate has already been sealed. Revelation 20

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. - Luke 10:18

To God be the glory!

BTW, your comments on judgment call for another “sermonette” but I didn’t want to overload this post – so more later.

[Alamo-Girl]

LOLOL! Thank you for your encouragements!

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed, there is overwhelming joy and security in following the Good Shepherd into the pasture (John 10, Psalms 23)

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

God's will is irresistible. Therein is predestination.

AMEN! That is a great truth and a very succinct way of defining what is so difficult to define. Thank you.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements, dear sister in Christ!

[Forest Keeper]

Love cannot be an action. You may work at it, attempt to maintain it or grow it, or act upon it in the manner that you choose, but it is not an emotion, nor is it an action.

Then what is love? Since you believe that salvation can be lost, you are forced to believe that love can be switched on and off. Is that thing that is switched on and off static? I think it was you who called love a decision. That is certainly an action.

Heb. 4:6 Therefore, since it remains that some will enter into it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience, (NAB?)

Formerly received? Only true believers can receive Christ. If you formerly believed and then disobeyed and will not enter into heaven, then you can lose your salvation.

Interesting difference in texts. Mine says:

Heb 4:6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.

That's quite a difference I'd say. :) Here is the KJV:

Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: KJV

The idea seems clear that the reason they didn't enter was that they never believed, although they had heard the word. That happens all the time. See also the lead up:

Heb 3:19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

And especially:

Heb 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

The context is unmistakable. Some physically hear, but they do not have spiritual ears to really HEAR.

[Quoted by Mark:] Heb 10: 26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

Paul here is disagreeing with the Reformed in a rather obvious manner.

Not at all. If we take this particular passage literally, as you do, then all of us are lost by definition, right? Nothing in this passage says "but don't worry, you can always confess to a priest and regain your salvation". There is nothing like that. Therefore, this must be interpreted. Consistent with the rest of the Bible, and ESPECIALLY with the rest of Paul, the better interpretation is that Paul is positing an impossibility for educational purposes. That seems likely to me since it is Paul who affirms that we can be sure of our salvation:

Rom 10:9-10 : 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

[Alamo-Girl]

Onto the discussion of judgment …

Funny, but not surprising, that you chose to ignore the following verses:

I do not ignore the words of God - any of them.

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: - Luke 24:25

Leviticus 2 deals with offerings – perhaps you meant chapter 19?

If so, then it should be noted that both Leviticus 19:15 and John 7:24 tell us righteous judgment is not based on appearances:

Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: [but] in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. – Leviticus 19:15

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. – John 7:24

The I Corinthians 2 verse you cited - in context - is speaking of Spiritual discernment, the Spiritual is judged of no man:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. – I Corinthians 2:14-16

I Corinthians 6:1-8 speaks of judging matters between people.

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [suffer yourselves to] be defrauded?

Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that [your] brethren.

Judging matters is not the same as judging the people themselves.

Matthew 7:1-5 speaks of judging people:

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. - Matthew 7:1-5

Finally from your list is I Corinthians 5 which speaks to judging within our assemblies on earth:

For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. – I Corinthians 5:12-13

And with that I again return to the Sermon on the Mount.

In Matthew 7, Jesus Christ raises two aspects of man’s judging. The first, verses 1-2, warns us that if we judge another, we will be judged exactly the same way. And that is righteous judgment consistent with the Lord’s prayer in Matthew 6:15 whereby we ask God to forgive us our debts exactly the same way we forgive others.

The second is judging false prophets which Christ encourages us to do. Note in Matthew 7:15-20 we are to know they are false by their fruits – a good tree does not produce bad fruits.

This is also righteous judgment, of the same vein as I Corinthians 5 which tells us to examine the fruits within our own assembly and remove everyone whose fruits are specifically: fornication, covetousness, extortion, idolatry, drunkedness, railing.

The bottom line is to stay away from prophets (people who want to teach us) whose fruits are bad. The fruits of the Spirit - the good fruits are:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23

The Scriptures are clear. Man will be judged exactly the same way he judges others.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: - Luke 6:37

That was the point I raised and none of the verses you cite contradict Matthew 7:1-5 – nor could they, i.e a thing is true because God says it. That point ties this reply to the earlier one at post 4789.

Romans 2:1 further shows that if a man judges another condemns himself:

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. - Romans 2:1

Our thoughts indict us. Returning again to the Sermon on the Mount, Christ says that thinking a thing is tantamount to doing it:

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. – Matthew 5:27-28

And that of course brings us back to the point of Proverbs 23:

As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he... - Proverbs 23:7

Which is further explained in Mark 7 – a man is defiled not by what goes into his mouth but what comes out of his heart.

And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. - Mark 7:20-23

Righteous judgment is not based on appearances. Righteous judgment is directed to matters, things or fruits.

If we judge another person, we will be judged exactly the same way.

In sum, hate the sin and love the sinner.

To God be the glory!

[Forest Keeper]

Are you saying that God chooses everything that we do? If I get hail damage on my car from the storm today, it’s God’s will? If I decide to go into a nudie bar or get drunk that it’s God’s will? How can I possibly sin if everything that happens is God’s micromanaged ‘plan”?

I am not saying that I know for sure that God chooses EVERYTHING that we do. For example, I don't know if God has anything to do with which shoe I put on first in the morning. He very well may, but I'm not sure about that. What I am sure of is that everything that is a part of God's plan does happen. And it's not by chance, it is by design. For example, if God wanted you to stay home for something this Saturday, then you ain't goin' to any nudie bar. However, if He wanted you to prevent a mugging at the nudie bar, then you're going. The point is whether it is a part of God's plan. But regardless of whether it is a part of God's plan or not, you are still responsible (answerable) for your own sin.

.......... The vicious attacks on Mother Teresa are God’s will? Jeffrey Dahmer is God’s will? I still can’t seem to reconcile that with the message of love and salvation that I read from the Gospels.

That is the difference between accepting that God is in control (and doing things we can't explain), and defaulting to the man-centered notion that man is really in control and God follows along dutifully. One is an omnipotent God and one is a very weak God.

Are you saying that if you read Scripture to a non elect who couldn’t appreciate it anyway that he’d get a better job, or a new car, or a wonderful wife or something like that?

No, I'm only saying that maybe that person would choose to sin LESS. I just think that the TRUTH might have some good effect on everybody, even the reprobate.

[Forest Keeper]

Look, it’s not a great step. The Reformed elect say that they know that they are of the elect. You preach the Gospel to people who do not have that surety inside. You say that if you are of the elect, then you know it. They don’t know it. Therefore they are of the non elect. Therefore they may come to the conclusion that you are taunting them with eternal rewards that they cannot attain. (emphasis added)

No no, you may be mixing "elect" with the common usage of "saved". No one has to know he is elect to be an elect. I was elect before I was even a Christian, so I obviously didn't know it then. The elect are chosen from the foundations and set in stone. Only during life, at a point of God's choosing, do they even have a chance to know it. You, meaning you you, could very well be elect and never "know" it during your life because you choose to follow a particular Christian faith. That doesn't get you kicked out, since you were chosen from the foundations.

Now, "saved" is a little more complex. Obviously all of the elect are saved, but in the common usage of saved, many people point to the time of first true belief. This is perfectly good, as long as it is understood in context. So, with this premise it "could" be said that I preach to an elect who isn't (yet) "saved". At that time, neither of us knows whether that person is elect or saved. All the elect are (or will be in time) saved and all the saved are elect. A main difference is in the common usage of the terms. Another difference is that the elect are all the people the Father gave to Christ, and the saved are the same people that Christ saved. Since Christ loses NONE of those the Father gave Him, the lists wind up being the same.

[stfassisi]

“” However, if He wanted you to prevent a mugging at the nudie bar, then you're going. The point is whether it is a part of God's plan. But regardless of whether it is a part of God's plan or not, you are still responsible (answerable) for your own sin.””

Dear FK, What you are saying here is that God planned sin in all 3 people in this scenario in order for one person to do good.

That is not a God of love,Dear Brother

First, even the thought of going to the nudie bar is a sin,adding to more sin by actually going there.

Second, the mugger is sinning, and that could not be planned by God either.

Third, the person being mugged is sinning by being in the nudie bar as well.

Don't you realize that what you are saying is that God puts sin into our minds purposely?

It is the devil that tempts us to sin,Dear brother.

When are you going to realize that God would not want there to be a nudie bar in the first place?

Or are you going to tell us that God planned that as well?

I wish you a Blessed day!

[hosepipe]

[ If we judge another person, we will be judged exactly the same way. In sum, hate the sin and love the sinner. ]

Indeed.. we make judgments all day long, all of us.. But it should be done with reluctant humility.. With all that is within us.. For how we judge just may be visited back upon us.. i.e. we will judge ourselves.. Being judged by our own standards and with our own mercy can be a hateful thing..

Better, like David, to be judged by the one who is the essence of mercy.. and forgiveness.. For who really knows the heart of a man or woman.. One does know.. And if that heart is cruel and heartless, being judged by its own standards, how cruel can that be.. The flesh is a hard taskmaster and insensitive to minutia and the moment.. And can pronounce judgement as easy as a flip of the tongue..

Who then can be saved, FROM OURSELVES?...
The Sheep Pen is a violent place.. John ch 10...
Many should take "its" lessons to heart..

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "First, we live in an imperfect world and we were never promised that we would be immune from any sin."

Really? St. Paul writes in Rom 6:2 "We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" And Luther tells us to "sin boldly" and not worry.

Hey, Rom. 6:2 is one of our verses, you're not allowed to use it. :) But seriously, what do you suppose Paul meant by that? Do you think he was teaching that the saved would never sin again, or were immune from sin? I don't think so. Paul admitted himself a sinner well after he was saved, so that doesn't make any sense. I think Paul was teaching the mindset we should have as Christians. Here, Paul was specifically teaching against what your side accuses us of all the time. That is, a sense of complacency and false freedom to do whatever one wants because salvation is assured. Paul rightfully warns fellow Protestants not to fall into that trap. Reformers are well aware of that warning.

Apparently, Luther does not tell you what he tells the rest of us. You must realize by now that the ONLY people in the world who agree with your interpretation of Luther, HATE Luther. Does that tell you anything? :)