Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.

My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.

I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.

It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.

I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.

Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."

I agree rather wholesale . . . with a caveat . . .

I suspect that we will discover that while it may be ‘technically possible’ for God to . . . operate his whole thing from His perspective outside of time . . .

I don’t think He does.

I believe His time frame is different . . . . as HE says . . . one day as a thousand of our years . . . or perhaps that as an analogy . . .

I think God enjoys the element of time and plays it like a piano as He does all aspects of His creation.

Certainly His ways ARE beyond our ways . . . His thoughts beyond ours . . . His foolishness greater than our wisdom . . .

And, it has not entered into the heart or mind of man the glories He HAS prepared for those WHO LOVE HIM.

Praise God.

[ To a transcendental God, there is no past, present or future. ]

= = =

Yes and no.

Saying HE IS BEYOND past, present and future makes sense.

Saying he has no understanding, appreciation for, use of, perspective on. . . past, present and future . . .

imho,

nonsense.

***kosta: Mental note: why does all-knowing transcendental God need a plan? ***

For kosta there can be no plan since all things happen randomly by chance. God is the perfect mathematician who can calculate the probabilities instantaneously and will come up with the correct calculations almost all the time. Of course, kosta must leave a chance God would not know something since all things happen by chance and so there must be a chance that God could miscalculate.

For kosta there can be no plan since all things happen randomly by chance

LOL! Must you twist things to the point of unrecognition just to post something? I said that for a transcendental God there is no past, present and future. He doesn't need a plan because God exists in eternal present.

In other words, a transcendental God sees that which is past, present and future, indeed the whole timeless eternity at once. What's there to plan; for God the past, present and future is "here and now." No "plan" is necessary.

We plan for the future. God doesn't. Unless of course you believe in Zeus or a Zeus-like god.

***We plan for the future. God doesn’t. Unless of course you believe in Zeus or a Zeus-like god. ***

Is your deist god so much better than the zeus god?

You’ve consistently held a secularists cosmology combined with a strong libertarian anthropology which must lead logically to a non-interventionist god who merely observes the free actions of men in an irrational world of chance.

I prefer the Christian God.

The problem, from my POV is that the Protestant weltanschaaung has what feel like too extreme, even artificially extreme dichotomies - Tradition v. Scripture, Faith v. Works, Merit v. Grace, God v. "institutions of men". it's not simply for cuteness that I say: Scripture IS a tradition, the queen of traditions; Faith IS a Work - enabled and directed by God; Merit is only possible if it is graciously given by God -- it's a kind of grace, essentially.

Well, our problem here is that if we give even an inch we are put into an impossible situation. Even as it is, most Apostolics I converse with demand that full credit be given to the Church for the Bible itself. The mostly unspoken caveat is, of course, that if any credit belongs to the Apostolic Church, then we are also obligated to follow whatever the Apostolic Church says is true about its interpretation. After all, if the Church wrote it, then the Church should get the SOLE say as to what it means. Naturally, that doesn't work so well for us. :)

And in any event, we really do think that God determines what revelation is, just as you said. I would be fully willing to say that not every interpretation I agree with is ultimately going to be right. But of course, no one representing the Apostolic Church could possibly stick out such a hand in return on anything that matters. :)

Rome conveniently ignores the fact that some dichotomies are true. Salvation is all of God's grace, and none of men's merit.

It behooves the RCC to tell us we're splitting hairs because the RCC preaches synergy -- a melding of grace and good works. But Scripture clearly doesn't teach this. God alone saves the fallen sinner by His grace alone through faith alone in the sacrifice of His Son alone whose righteousness is imputed to us through the Holy Spirit alone.

Rome would have us believe we are too strict, "too extreme" in our reading of Scripture, when the truth is that Rome doesn't bother very much with Scripture and instead turns to its magisterium for guidance.

Monergism means exactly what the Bible says -- saved by grace through faith...alone.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:8-10

Of course this perspective takes the power of salvation away from men and magisteriums and returns it to God alone, so I can understand why some would prefer to muddy the waters and paint God's world in shades of gray.

Those who say Scripture is a tradition miss the point entirely. Whenever Christ spoke of tradition, He almost always spoke in negative terms and denounced it. So, no. Scripture is not "tradition." Scripture is the mind of God made known to us by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Scripture is comprehensive and complete and universal and life-changing. When Paul tells us Scripture is "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" we have to ask the RCC -- what more is there??? What do Rome's variable traditions and rites and relics and wooden statues and "other Christs" and "co-redeemers" provide that Scripture does not?

I see you are good at labeling. But what good is a label without substance?

I prefer the Christian God

Which version? The angry, moody God of the Old Testament, the Christ of the Gospels, the Pauline Christ, the Calvinist Zeus, or the Mormon variety?

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works"...

Which man (of God) is perfect?

... we have to ask the RCC -- what more is there??? What do Rome's variable traditions and rites and relics and wooden statues and "other Christs" and "co-redeemers" provide that Scripture does not?

We could aks the same thing about the scripture readings and gathering on Sundays in Protestant lecture halls, hymns, public prayers...etc.

You said it above, quoting St. Paul, that a man of God manifests himself perfectly unto all good works. No words are necessary. People will recognize God's goodness in such a person by his works, not by the ritualistic waving of hands in the air, not through bible readings, not through uniformed choirs singing man-made hymns, or baptismal ceremonies.

Why, speaking of traditions, Presbyterian churches did not allow any kind of instrumental music for a long time. I bet you, most Presbyterians never even think about their choirs as unnecessary, man-made tradition added to Protestant rituals.

...Of course this perspective takes the power of salvation away from men and magisteriums and returns it to God alone,...

If you don't have standing armies and want those that do to acquiesces to your will what better way is there than to teach you must do as the Church says or your soul is in danger of being damned? If you rely on willing cooperation among indwelt Christians you can't guarantee what will happen. However, if you develop a coercive theology in which you control the "keys" to salvation compliance is easier to achieve.

We forget history. As the church of Rome became dominant the aristocracy also began to take on a large role in it's leadership. The very thing that made it strong also made it very susceptible to manipulation, the mono-bishophoric structure, which was not the structure of the Apostolic church.

Thank you oh so very much for sharing your insights, dearest sister in Christ!

Making "man the measure" of Truth is a prescription for human personal and social disaster, wherein the center no longer holds; wherein the Beast continues its relentless slouching towards Babylon....

So very true.

As you have said, if the ROCK were to change or move about, we would have no footing at all.

To God be the glory!

Thus there is a purpose to every speck of life, good and bad, and that purpose is to serve God's will for His glory, one way or another.

"Known to God from eternity are all His works." -- Acts 15:18

So very true. Thank you for sharing your insights, the excerpts and especially, that beautiful Scripture!

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. - Revelation 4:11

To God be the glory!

Indeed. And I find the dialog between Christ and Peter in the Gospel of John to be quite revealing.

All the while He is speaking, Jesus knows Peter’s heart and that he will indeed feed His sheep and that he will suffer death because of it and the manner of his physical death. Yet He reveals all of this to Peter couched in the "if/then": Do you love me? Feed my sheep.

So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. – John 21:15-19

Moreover Jesus repeats it three times, showing the great importance of the qualification to feed His sheep – that we must love Him to feed His sheep.

So we see both predestination and free will in Jesus’ words to Peter.

He knows what Peter will do and what shall happen to him – but reveals by the "if/then" that Peter has the freedom of movement to love Jesus – or not - and thus to feed His sheep (in the power of the words of God) - or not.

To God be the glory!

Thank you so much for sharing your insights - and thank you for your encouragements!

I think God enjoys the element of time and plays it like a piano as He does all aspects of His creation.

I very strongly agree.

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. - Revelation 4:11

Maranatha, Jesus!!!

[ Moreover Jesus repeats it three times, showing the great importance of the qualification to feed His sheep – that we must love Him to feed His sheep. So we see both predestination and free will in Jesus’ words to Peter.

Since "feed my sheep" is a metaphorical reference.. The object of the metaphor must be gained.. How does a shepherd feed sheep?.. Obviously a shepherd does not feed sheep he takes them to where they can feed themselves.. a pasture.. A shepherd leads sheep to a bountiful pasture where they feed themselves.. Not pre digested stuff from the shepherds mouth.. The metaphor is rich and deep.. and exposes many errors.. Conversations with a real shepherd is a worthy task.. Feeding sheep in a holding pen(sheep pen) is much different than feeding them in a pasture.. Ps 23.. A mental task of considering sheep in a holding pen and sheep in a pasture would be a good meditation for any metaphorical shepherd..

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