Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

email from Randall Easter | 25 January 2008 | Randall Easter

[Forest Keeper]

What will the Lord of the harvest say when, having already said that wheat and tares should grow together, he hears his workers mocking his field for all the tares in it? Will he not say, "Well, I see the enemy got YOUR attention, and you pay more mind to his interference than to my word."

Well, "focusing on" may be a bit much, but we should never be complacent to live in the midst of sin. We are taught that sin needs correction. If no one ever says anything then sin will just continue to grow in any organization. As with anyone I can think of around here, if you were a member of a group that was fine for a while, but then started to stand for or do very unChristian things, you would work to correct the problem and/or resign from the group. In hyperbole, if the Pope declared today that historic American-style slavery was suddenly fine and dandy, I doubt you would sit idly by and just "go with it". :)

PLUS, we have the whole history of the Church in dealing with heretics, myself included. :)

[irishtenor]

***If you witness to the non elect, are you taunting them with what they cannot have?***

You apparently have not been used by God as a tool to bring someone to Christ. I have, and it is a very awesome, humbling experience. God uses whom he will and what he will to bring his children home. It may be a rousing sermon, a quiet prayer, a particular verse in the Bible, an example of love and devotion by a servant of God, or whatever God wants to show the lost his love. We do not know who the elect are, so we are charged to witness to all what we know about the love of God. That is why we spend so much time with you, because we love you in Christ.

[Forest Keeper]

FK: I have come to think that the key is always on what each of us calls the starting point. I.e., what are our presuppositions?

Sounds like some of my posts didn't just go over your head, FK: now you consider our individual a priori acceptance of a starting kernel of faith, from which all other musings become "official truth," rather than saying that somehow our faith is simply "downloaded" from God?

Well, perhaps THIS post is over my head. :) I don't think I've changed my story. The truths of the scriptures are open to be received by anyone God has prepared. Part of that preparation includes the installation of Godly presuppositions, such as "God exists". Those presuppositions, sometimes acquired by learning from a believer, and confirmed in scripture, then grow into eventual faith. Another way to say the same thing is: "God gives us our faith".

[Quix]

Indeed.

In terms of the elect . . . Calvinists, particularly hyperCalvinists pontificate plentifully

as though their constructions on reality had all that pinned down rather exaustively.

I think that’s hogwash.

There is an elect.

God knows all ends before all beginnings.

There are some very mysterious aspects vis a vis His foreknowledge, predestination and FreeWill.

Calvinists would obliterate FreeWill regardless of their ratioinalizations otherwise, imho.

Nevertheless, without Authentic Freedom, there is No Authentic Responsibility, accountability.

Some Calvinists would posit an Almighty God more harshly ruthless and arbitrary than humans are. That is NOT Biblical, to me. Nor does that Describe The Almighty God I know.

There is the verse about the wicked created for God’s purposes. Evidently Calvinists classify everyone into either said wicked or said elect. Makes a neat tidy package to a point. I don’t particularly buy it.

I suppose it could be argued that Judas was one said wicked created for destruction etc.

Though there is the interesting sentence about woe to him who it comes about by . . . or some such . . .

How do we deal with an All Loving God who punishes people for doing what HE created them to do??? Doesn’t fit my understanding or knowledge of God . . . as finite as that understanding and knowledge are.

Calvinists seem compulsively determined to tack God down to the nth degree into all their tidy little boxes. I believe that when all’s been said and done, He will not have fit in ANY of them . . . nor in any others’ tidy little boxes.

I believe that tossing around absolutist pontifical sentences about “the elect” is nearly always foolhardy except to say that God has an elect and is well able to preserve them and what they have committed unto Him against that Day as Scripture declares.

I believe that a host of Scriptures don’t make much sense unless there’s a vast group between the absolutely unalterably damned of the wicked created only for destruction and the elect such as John the Baptist filled with Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb.

But that’s just my hunch. It’s not something I’d want to carve a doctrine or dogma out about. I see through a glass darkly TOO.

But I believe the PERSONALLY WILLFUL CHOICES of that middle group make a great deal of difference vis a vis their eternal destiny and a lot else.

Else their rewards would be akin to the rewards Korea’s Leader gives himself.

just imho, of course.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

God uses whom he will and what he will to bring his children home. It may be a rousing sermon, a quiet prayer, a particular verse in the Bible, an example of love and devotion by a servant of God, or whatever God wants to show the lost his love. We do not know who the elect are, so we are charged to witness to all what we know about the love of God.

Amen!

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." — 2 Thess. 2:13-14

And Quix, God didn't just "know" the end from the beginning -- He "declared" it. It's all of and by and for Him, one way or another.

No Calvinist believes an understanding of predestination is required for salvation. But most Calvinists do believe that every jot and tittle of this life is by His will for His glory...in some mysterious, incomprehensible way.

But the truth of it seems to be overwhelming if God is who He says He is in Scripture.

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" -- Psalm 65:4

It's said that Calvin was moved to believe in Predestination after reading Augustine's "Predestination of the Saints" and Ephesians 1. Who can read Ephesians 1 and not believe it all true?

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved...

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." -- Ephesians 1:4-6,17-21.

Quix, if you ever have just a moment to spare, read Warfield's short essay...

SOME THOUGHTS ON PREDESTINATION
by B.B. Warfield

I have honestly known dozens and dozens of Christians who have come to embrace this gracious truth. I have yet to meet anyone who has gone the opposite direction. Calvinists wish that same blessed assurance for you and all Christians...

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romans 9:11

---

"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." -- John 17:9-10

[kosta50]

... (I believe Quix calls God the Father "Daddy," how "cute"), ... That's what "Abba" means, Kosta. It is also another excellent illustration of the personal and familial relationship God wants to have with us. When referring to someone else's father, the word would be "ab". But with the addition of "ba" it would only make sense to refer to one's own father, "Daddy". This is the family of God. Only believers can properly say "Abba, Father"

LOL! ROTFLOL! Wow! Did you just make that up? Or did the "inner voice" revealed this to you? If the latter, I would watch out...

"Ab" is Hebrew; "Abba" is Aramaic, Chalean. They both mean "Father." It's not English, FK! You don't form diminutives the same as in English, i.e. from Dad to Daddy...ROTFLOL! I freally don't know where you guys are pulling this stuff from! Vivid imagination?

God is the Father because we believe that He is the source of everything and the Creator of every one of us, including the Son and the Spirit.

When Christ is quoted by Mark as crying out "Abba, why have you forsaken Me?" He is not saying "Daddy."

[Forest Keeper]

It's easy to throw darts at an over 2000 year old Church and find so called members who do NOT follow the teachings, FK. Does this make you feel superior, Dear Brother?

Nope, I have no need to claim superiority. However, the Apostolic Church DOES claim superiority. That's my point. It is simply a long standing hobby horse of mine that since the Apostolic Church claims to be absolutely superior and absolutely exclusive (yours is the only true Christian faith, etc.), then I would expect to see a reason for that in the hierarchy. While it is doubtless that countless men have served with honor and true Christian piety, I nevertheless see nothing "superior" in the men, as a whole, who have made up this superior club.

Should I bring up the countless atrocities done in the name of one's personal interpretation of scripture that came out solo scripture, the foundation of protestantism?

No need. We do not answer for all non-Apostolics who call themselves Christians. But it really wasn't my point to play "who committed the most atrocities". I don't think that matters so much. While our clergy is certainly called, they do not claim nearly the things that Apostolic clergy do. Kosta has said many times before something along the lines of "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof". My point is that I would expect to see some sort of evidence of worthiness, etc.

The Gates of hell will never prevail against the Catholic Church, just as Christ promised.

The verse says:

Matt 16:18 : And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

This is a perfect example of the superiority and exclusivity that is claimed by your Church. Christ says "my Church" which you interpret to mean ONLY your particular Church. If that's what Christ really meant, then I would expect to see a difference between "your people" and "my people". I do not. However, I DO see a difference between Christians in general (including you guys) and non-believers in general.

[blue-duncan]

“the Creator of every one of us, including the Son and the Spirit.”

Now that is intersting. Please explain how God “created” God?

Nicean Creed

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,

Athanasian Creed

This is what the catholic faith teaches: we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity.
Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.
For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty.
What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is.
The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

Orthodox

GOD THE FATHER is the fountainhead of the Holy Trinity. The Scriptures reveal the one God is Three Persons — Father, Son, and Holy Spirit — eternally sharing the one divine nature. From the Father the Son is begotten before all ages and all time (Psalm 2:7; II Corinthians 11:31). It is from the Father that the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds (John 15:26). God the Father created all things through the Son, in the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1 and 2; John 1:3; Job 33:4), and we are called to worship Him (John 4:23). The Father loves us and sent His Son to give us everlasting life (John 3:16).

[wmfights]

We need to understand the Way, the Truth and the Life and what that means to our eternal salvation. Repent, be baptized, believe and follow the Way.

Really, it's not all that complicated. Just have FAITH, the LORD takes care of the rest. I know it's hard if you are a member of a church that teaches you must adhere to all it's rules and practices and then maybe, just maybe, you might be good enough to go to some place that's not hell and isn't heaven.

Jesus said he wouldn't lose any that are his. Jesus told us he would send a counselor to guide us in all truth. Jesus either told us the Truth or he didn't. I believe him.

Who can walk it without His help?

Nobody. Who says they are trying?

[irishtenor]

I would also recommend Luther’s Bondage of the Will.

[irishtenor]

***God is the Father because we believe that He is the source of everything and the Creator of every one of us, including the Son and the Spirit.***

Did you REALLY mean to say this, or is this a typo?

[GOP_Thug_Mom]

wow! excellent insight. thank you for absolving me of continuing this futile exchange. 0:^)

[Forest Keeper]

But I did bend over once to pick up my towel once drying off in front of the old gas stove in the adobe mud hut . . . thankfully without resulting in a brand.

Praise God for all of His tender mercies. :)

[stfassisi]

“”Nope, I have no need to claim superiority. However, the Apostolic Church DOES claim superiority.””

Dear Brother,you claim superiority without even realizing that every time you elevate what you think your own mind guides you to convince yourself that God gave you special authority make up His church in your own mind based upon your privite interpretations of Scripture.

You have convinced yourself that your personal interpretations of scripture is Holy Spirit guiding you to do so.

This is the the divinization of the mind that leads you to do this.

This personal (do it my way) spirit of protestantism proves to be founded upon the divinization of the mind because the reformers were never united of one mind with themselves and were divided against whatever makes up solo Scripture from the onset.

The reality of it all is that the authority of solo Scripture is NOT Scripture only!

It is Scripture plus the authority of whatever the human mind wants to believe what the Scriptures to mean according to the rules of themselves and the lifestyle they want to live.

This is why you have so many divisions and constant divided ever growing communities of protestantism in its short history

[Religion Moderator]

You have convinced yourself..

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal. Reading minds is "making it personal."

[Quix]

Will try and get to your Warfield link.

Have a shortcut to it.

Of course I believe all the Scripture cover to cover.

I don’t make the same inferences Calvinists seem to make from many of them.

Thanks for your ping.

[Quix]

I’ll go ahead and take the . . . translations . . . of scholars in my past. I knew more about their scholarship at the time.

DADDY is fitting and plenty Biblical, for me.

Besides . . . DADDY is the God Almighty so wonderfully described in ANGELS ON ASSIGNMENT which was such a redemptive, drawing-me-closer-to God sort of book when I first read it and the 2nd time I read it as well.

But, hey, I realize you have interesting agendas about . . . other’s perspectives that are different from yours. Carry on, if you dare, as you persistently do.

[Quix]

They sure like to mangle, toss aside those 400 years of true history, don’t they.

RUBBER HISTORY BOOKS INDEED.

[Quix]

Thanks for your ping.

I’m more than a little of a similar mind to what I understand of Angel-Gal’s.

Human opinions don’t generally and certainly not automatically do scratch for me.

It’s Scripture and Holy Spirit who impresses on me a particular enlightening insight into God’s Word. Otherwise, it is usually, at best, guilded chaff.

[Quix]

Especially for our tender parts—tangible and otherwise!