***If you witness to the non elect, are you taunting them with what they cannot have?***
You apparently have not been used by God as a tool to bring someone to Christ. I have, and it is a very awesome, humbling experience. God uses whom he will and what he will to bring his children home. It may be a rousing sermon, a quiet prayer, a particular verse in the Bible, an example of love and devotion by a servant of God, or whatever God wants to show the lost his love. We do not know who the elect are, so we are charged to witness to all what we know about the love of God. That is why we spend so much time with you, because we love you in Christ.
Indeed.
In terms of the elect . . . Calvinists, particularly hyperCalvinists pontificate plentifully
as though their constructions on reality had all that pinned down rather exaustively.
I think that’s hogwash.
There is an elect.
God knows all ends before all beginnings.
There are some very mysterious aspects vis a vis His foreknowledge, predestination and FreeWill.
Calvinists would obliterate FreeWill regardless of their ratioinalizations otherwise, imho.
Nevertheless, without Authentic Freedom, there is No Authentic Responsibility, accountability.
Some Calvinists would posit an Almighty God more harshly ruthless and arbitrary than humans are. That is NOT Biblical, to me. Nor does that Describe The Almighty God I know.
There is the verse about the wicked created for God’s purposes. Evidently Calvinists classify everyone into either said wicked or said elect. Makes a neat tidy package to a point. I don’t particularly buy it.
I suppose it could be argued that Judas was one said wicked created for destruction etc.
Though there is the interesting sentence about woe to him who it comes about by . . . or some such . . .
How do we deal with an All Loving God who punishes people for doing what HE created them to do??? Doesn’t fit my understanding or knowledge of God . . . as finite as that understanding and knowledge are.
Calvinists seem compulsively determined to tack God down to the nth degree into all their tidy little boxes. I believe that when all’s been said and done, He will not have fit in ANY of them . . . nor in any others’ tidy little boxes.
I believe that tossing around absolutist pontifical sentences about “the elect” is nearly always foolhardy except to say that God has an elect and is well able to preserve them and what they have committed unto Him against that Day as Scripture declares.
I believe that a host of Scriptures don’t make much sense unless there’s a vast group between the absolutely unalterably damned of the wicked created only for destruction and the elect such as John the Baptist filled with Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb.
But that’s just my hunch. It’s not something I’d want to carve a doctrine or dogma out about. I see through a glass darkly TOO.
But I believe the PERSONALLY WILLFUL CHOICES of that middle group make a great deal of difference vis a vis their eternal destiny and a lot else.
Else their rewards would be akin to the rewards Korea’s Leader gives himself.
just imho, of course.
Amen!
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." — 2 Thess. 2:13-14"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
And Quix, God didn't just "know" the end from the beginning -- He "declared" it. It's all of and by and for Him, one way or another.
No Calvinist believes an understanding of predestination is required for salvation. But most Calvinists do believe that every jot and tittle of this life is by His will for His glory...in some mysterious, incomprehensible way.
But the truth of it seems to be overwhelming if God is who He says He is in Scripture.
"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" -- Psalm 65:4
It's said that Calvin was moved to believe in Predestination after reading Augustine's "Predestination of the Saints" and Ephesians 1. Who can read Ephesians 1 and not believe it all true?
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved...
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." -- Ephesians 1:4-6,17-21. "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Quix, if you ever have just a moment to spare, read Warfield's short essay...
I have honestly known dozens and dozens of Christians who have come to embrace this gracious truth. I have yet to meet anyone who has gone the opposite direction. Calvinists wish that same blessed assurance for you and all Christians...
"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." -- John 17:9-10 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romans 9:11
***MB: If you witness to the non elect, are you taunting them with what they cannot have?
IT: You apparently have not been used by God as a tool to bring someone to Christ. ***
That is not answering the question.
If you witness to a Reformed non elect about the Good News of Jesus Christ, since the non elect know that they are the non elect, is it the equivalent of waving salvation in their faces in a mocking fashion, since they can never achieve it?
***God uses whom he will and what he will to bring his children home.***
No question about that. My question is about how witnessing affects the Reformed non elect.
***We do not know who the elect are, so we are charged to witness to all what we know about the love of God. That is why we spend so much time with you, because we love you in Christ.***
And I appreciate that time; I may not always show it effectively, but since I think that all men are brothers in Christ by His Grace (although there are many who reject that Grace and therefore separate themselves from Him), that I agree that all men need to be informed about the Good News. I believe that evangelization needs to occur and that we need to share with all. Based upon Scripture (the Great Commission) and the Church’s teachings.
I still don’t understand the point of bringing the Gospel to the non elect under Reformed theology, if not as a taunt.