Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
Exactly.
we see that there is not a united single source of protestant faith -we can clearly see that its fruits were not grounded in love ,it was grounded in confusion from the start
The deception is clear. It is grounded in me-myself-and I mentality; it divides rather than unifies, it emphasizes the logical and not the spiritual, it leads man to believe he is the mouthpiece of God, etc.
The Catholic Church has already fought against what we call the N[ew] A[ge] M[ovement] for thousands of years
Good reminder, SFA. This NAM pest has been masquerading as "Christianity" for a long time. There are so many an innocent Christian who falls victim to NAM's seductive lies, even on these Forums.
LOL! being a faithful, practicing Catholic and a New Ager is an oxymoron. If she is a New Ager she is not a faithful Catholic.
Just as the Jews will accept someone as Jewish even if he or she is not obervant (even agnostic or atheist), but the rabbis wll remind us that one cannot be a Jew and a Christain and remian a Jew.
I do not characterize the vision at Fatima or Guadalupe. However, the miracles performed by anti-Christ in the end will be convincing for those who are not elect.
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. - 2 Th 2:6-12
FK: Yes, absolutely true. I meant that we know that SOME are saved
No we don't. We only know that we can be, and hope that we will be. Those who are dead know. We can only hope.
That is the point. The New Age Movement has no holy writ, no organization - it is a subtext to whatever else a person claims to be "true."
However, the common thread as far as I can see is a belief in a "god"-like cosmic consciousness of which each is a part. And that belief would be anti-Christ and anti-God.
And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. – Revelation 19:13
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. – Matthew 22:29
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Matthew 4:4
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. – I Corinthians 1:19-25
The Catholic Church is immune.
Individual Catholic church’s who do not follow the teachings of the Catholic Church can fall into this snare . I have seen it where a few individual churches have offered yoga etc..
It is up to those of us in the Church militant to bring it to their attention that they are not following the Church’s teaching. If they disregard it we must be ready to take the abuse to the Diocese or even higher if necessary to force them to stop .
The protestant communities do not have a system to stop the spread of the NAM.
When its brought to their attention what sometimes ends up happening is their communities continue to divide amongst themselves.
Case in point..Rick Warren ,Robert Schuller and other popular protestant communities are New Agers are separated from what you might practice
An individual Catholic church can be easily shown things such as the document I provided from the Vatican to show their error
INDEED.
Watching, prayerfully obediend, being ready, Holy Spirit discerning . . . crucial.
Exactly true! ...And we have the teachings of Saints like Blessed Irenaues who fought against much of this.We also have rules that specifically state that those who practice New Age are not in union with the Church.
The protestant communities have to go it alone on this as well and pick and choose what they think is right and wrong individually
Quite so.
And the ‘god-like’ cosmic consciousness issue is even being trumpeted by physicists with a NEW AGE bent . . .
and various UFO gurus are hailing the LIGHT BEARERS etc. etc. etc. increasingly . . .
Even URANTIA is getting more press and attention.
People seem unable to imagine a day when ALMOST ALL ONE’S ASSOCIATES AND EXTENDED RELATIVES are celebrating the NEW AGE of PEACE AND BROTHERHOOD around a FALSE MESSIAH.
If anything The Obumma candidacy and the throngs clammering for him should give folks pause about at least the gullibility of the masses . . . and to often . . . of the one in our mirrors.
CHURCHIANITY
and/or
CHURCHOLATRY
will not save one subatomic particle worth of one of your hairs . . . nor anyone else’s.
That would be true EVEN IF the RELIGIOUS EDIFICE concerned were mostly right—which the RC edifice is not.
***Dawg’s First Caveat of Theology:
God is so very different from the ‘categories’ of the human mind that He isn’t even ‘one’ the way we usually think of ‘one’***
If this were the case then God could never had revealed himself. This has never been the position of the Church. God condescends to reveal himself mediated through the categories of the human mind and not that we can utterly know his essence but we certainly are capable of knowing of his nature otherwise we could say nothing about him.
***Just for clarification:
“allowed” by whom, by a “thinker” or what?***
Yes, by a person. Some persons will reject any notion of a god and base all sense experience only upon the universe or their own construct of that universe while others will allow for a god that is only part and parcel of the universe.
***The rest of my differences would fall under the head of “falsely exhaustive alternatives”... I would say there are many similar problems. Often, from my POV, some Protestants seem to be saying, “It’s either A or B,” and I want to say, “Whoa, hold on, are those the only choices?”***
Yes, from a Christian viewpoint those are the only two alternatives; either God is part and parcel of the universe or he is the grounds of the universe.
***About freedom and God’s control, and freedom as something which sort of goes through stages:
I was once free to marry. I could choose to marry this person, or that person or no person at all. Or I could dither and never make up my mind. If I never chose, it would be like my freedom never matured, or was never used. If I chose wrongly, well, that would be a shame, possibly a disaster (though it seems that nothing is beyond God’s redeeming reach). But if I chose rightly and stuck by the choice, then my freedom, which seems to have been lost or “used up” when I got married blossoms into parenthood (or not) and a life of working out what matrimony means.So somewhere in the middle of what you say I want to suggest that there might be a kind of freedom entrusted to us which is only properly used if we immediately hand it back to God. (and we never do, because we’re broken, etc.)***
This the perfect example of what I spelled out in my post is the problem with the Romanist, et al, thinking and that is you start from experience and try to move to revelation instead of starting with revelation and interpret all facts through the prism of revelation.
***I’m probably misunderstanding you (there’s a lot of that going around) but isn’t the Incarnation an instance of God mysteriously becoming sort of kind of dependent on mankind and on His creation?***
No, I would categorize this as the foolishness of God which is wiser than the wisdom of man.
***Just as God isn’t “one” the way we expected, but includes within his simplicity a society of persons,...***
Is it really that unexpected? The ancient philosophers struggled with the problem of the One and the Many and yet through revelation we can see it perfectly realized within God himself.
***so maybe omnipotence doesn’t work out as we might think it does.***
What does the revelation of God say?
***kosta: the_conscience is pulling all this out of a hat. He gives no references, no sources.***
I referenced the Bible. I know you reference the Bible when it fits your purposes and trash it when it hurts but I don’t engage in such incoherent logic. Besides, I wasn’t writing a doctrinal thesis I was trying to make a concise point. Do I really need to quote the Patristics to show they believed in the freedom of man? Since you repeatedly assert it is so why would I need to quote them?
***kosta: But, that’s not our theology, as t_c claims.
***
My post showed the logical conclusions of holding to the freedom of man and it still holds, to your chagrin
Dear brother,
I have come to the conclusion for sometime now that it is better for me to pray for someone like you than to pay attention to what you have to say and all of your rants.
I wish you peace of mind!
That's because that power was taken away from you after The Scriptures became wide spread in local vernacular, not because of any change of heart on your church's part.
You really must be missing "something" if thats your spiritual experience.. I dont know that but it seems so..
If you don't see the truth of it I can't make you. However, the number of people you can look at who are changed is extraordinary in and of itself. That alone should indicate something has happened.
I'm sorry you don't have Faith that what Jesus Christ told us is true.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
The one constant in the EOC and the RCC is fear. From day to day you are never sure if you've done enough, or believed enough.
“That’s because that power was taken away from you after The Scriptures became wide spread in local vernacular, not because of any change of heart on your church’s part.”
Orthodoxy never had an Inquisition, WF, nor a reformation for the matter. We had no need of either. Otherwise, I was making a joke, WF.
"ΤΟ ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ ΑΓΙΟΝ ΕΥΑΓΓΕΛΙΟΝ"
"According to John", not "According to God and transcribed by John." That, AG, would be a dangerously heretical reading of the title of that Gospel. It would be a Mohammedan, and thus extra-heretical, way to read it. I know you are not a Mohammedan and thus need to ask you why you think +John was the amanuensis of Almighty God. The implications of such a role for +John and the other Gospel writers are rather extraordinary. Does your bible entitle +John's Gospel different than mine?
You have a very, very, very strong faith in your church.
At bottom, our reaction to the kinds of issues we are discussing here – more specifically your counter-claim that the Catholic Church is indeed immune to the New Age Movement – always turns on our answer to the question:
As I have said before on this thread, those who believe Joseph Smith need to understand what that means. Ditto for those who believe Mohammed. Ditto, L. Ron Hubbard. Ditto, David Koresh. Ditto, Jim Jones. Ditto, Applewhite. And so on.
And ditto for those of you who believe the dogma and doctrine and liturgy and sacraments of the physical or visible Catholic/Orthodox Church - or LDS or whatever - as it has been handed down over the years.
But that is not the Way God has chosen for me. I do not see any of above as immune to corruption; I see no infallibility or invincibility outside of God. The Gates of Hell will not prevail against the body of Christ. And the church consists of the elect born in the Spirit, the body of Christ, all of those to whom God has revealed that Jesus Christ is Lord. Peter was the first of many, like Abraham, a rock. But God is The Rock. And Jesus is the head of the church.
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. - I Corinthians 12:3
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. – John 6:44
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13
Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock [whence] ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit [whence] ye are digged. Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah [that] bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him. – Isaiah 51:1-2
Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he. – Deuteronomy 32:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20
I of course strongly disagree that any entity has power over God and point to the conversion of Cornelius, that they received the Holy Spirit before being baptized, before Peter laid his hands on them and even before he had finished speaking to them the Gospel of Jesus Christ:
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? – Acts 11:15-17
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. – Acts 15:1
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) – John 7:38-39
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. – I Corinthians 12:13
My path is to love God and believe and trust Him. Only Him.
To God be the glory, not man, never man.
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