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Joseph Smith: Creator of the Fourth Abrahamic Faith; Mormonism
Auhtor's website ^ | September 15, 2007 | G. Richard Jansen

Posted on 11/14/2007 8:28:07 AM PST by fortcollins

Joseph Smith Jr. was born December 23, 1805 in Sharon, Vermont. It is interesting that Brigham Young and John Humphrey Noyes, founder of the Oneida Community in upstate New York, also were born in Vermont. Joseph Smith Sr. lost considerable money in speculative business ventures putting the family in near poverty and resulting in seven moves in the first fourteen years of Joseph Smith’s life. Around the year 1815 his family settled in Palmyra New York, just north of the finger lakes, and not far from the Oneida Free Community. He was limited in education and training, had little interest in farming or other types of work, and his interests moved into the spiritual and mystical realms. He spent a fair amount of time searching for buried treasure claiming miraculous powers but not succeeding.

In his autobiography “The Pearl of Great Price”, Joseph Smith relates that he became disturbed by the religious squabbles among Methodists, Baptists and Presbyterians in the community and indeed in his own family. He elected to follow advice he had found in James 1:5 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” In the spring of 1820 Smith went to the woods to pray and to seek God. In his words he was sized by a “great power that left him speechless and in darkness.” He called on God for deliverance and then saw a great light over his head and heard a voice saying “This is my beloved son, hear him.” His next visit occurred three years later on September 21, 1823 when he was visited by an Angel named Maroni who directed him to a nearby hill where he would find a hidden book written on gold plates along with information on how to translate the inscribed words. The translated book became the Book of Mormon.

In 1829 Smith and his friend baptized each other and were visited, in his account, by John the Baptist who conferred on them both the Priesthood of Aaron. Later that year, although the date is uncertain, they were visited by the Apostles Peter, James and John who conferred on them both the both the Priesthood of Melchizedek, the King of Salem (Jerusalem) who lived during the time of the patriarch Abraham. As described in the Doctrines and Covenants of the Mormon Church Smith continued to receive revelations from God until his death.

In 1830 Joseph Smith established his Church in upstate New York and called it initially the Church of Christ. Later he moved his Church to Kirtland, Ohio, then Caldwell County, Missouri and in 1839 to Nauvoo Illinois. As a result of events that happened in Nauvoo, to be discussed below, he was arrested, moved to a jail in the county seat, Carthage where he and his brother Hyrum were assassinated by an angry mob.

Book of Mormon

In 1830 Smith was directed by an encounter with the angel Moroni to a location near Palimyra, New York on a hill subsequently named Cumorah where he found golden plates These plates were miraculously translated by Smith which revealed that it was the Book of Mormon that had been inscribed on these plates. Only a small handful of Smith’s followers were allowed to see the plates. Smith published his translation in 1830 and the angel Moroni subsequently took the plates back.

The Book of Mormon describes the migration by boat of several Jewish tribes from what we now call Israel to what we now call the New World of North and South America 600 years before Christ. Two of these tribes were named the Nephites and the Lamanites. The Lamanites are described as marked by God with a darker skin color to identify their state of wickedness. After Christ’s resurrection he visited the New World and the Nephites and the Lamanites subsequently had several centuries of peaceful co-existence and cooperation. This ended with a massive battle on the hill Cumorah in which the Nephites were destroyed by the Lamanites. Mormons believe that American Indians are descendants of the Lamanites. In the Book of Ether, one of the books in the Book of Mormon, a people described as the Jaredites are described. Thes people were present at the Tower of Babel when human language was confounded but they fortunately escaped such confounding of their language. Approximately 2500 years before Christ the Jaredites by barge migrated to the New World. They grew to a civilization of two million people before they destroyed themselves by their own behavior just prior to the arrival of the Nephites and Lamanites.

This all is, of course, a fabulous fable for which there is not even minimally convincing archeological, anthropological or historical evidence. However to say it is a creative fable written by an individual with an exceptionally imaginative mind would be an understatement. History of Mormonism

The organizational meeting of the Church of Christ, the forerunner of what became the Mormon Church was held April 6, 1830. Smith and Cowdery met with a small number of their followers. A lay ministry was ordained with a priesthood and offices of deacon, teacher, and elder. Smith and Cowdery were ordained as Apostles of Jesus Christ and as first and second elders respectively. In 1831 the Church moved to Kirtland. Ohio and its name was changed to the Church of Latter Day Saints. Sidney Rigdon, a prominent restorationist minister and follower of Alexander Campbell converted to Mormonism, joined Smith’s nascent Church and brought a large number of “Cambellites” along with him. The Church of Latter Day Saints doubled in size. A Mormon temple was built in Kirtland. At that time a second Mormon gathering place was established in Independence, Jackson County, Missouri. Smith declared that the “City of Zion” would be built at that site. Construction was started but the temple was never built.

By 1837 the Church in Kirtland was unraveling with apostasy among the leadership and members and major financial irregularities in a bank Smith established. Smith, Rigdon and some of their followers fled from Kirtland to Missouri in the middle of the night. Dissenters in Kirtland reestablished the original Church of Christ and took possession of the temple. In 1836 the Mormon legislature had established the town of Far West, in Caldwell County as a place for Mormons to settle and so they did immediately. In 1838 Smith and Rigdon moved to Far West and had to struggle for Church leadership with Mormons already there and in Independence. Church leaders Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and William Wines Phelps were excommunicated by Smith and eventually fled Far West under threats for their lives. Cowdery and Whitmer were two of the three who claimed they had seen the golden plates. The Mormon Church now again under the leadership of Joseph Smith was reestablished and renamed the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, its present name.

In Far West Smith organized a paramilitary organization called the Danites, named in honor of the Jewish tribe of Dan of which Sampson was a member. Its role was to enforce religious conformity and protect the Mormons against the non Mormons. Secret instruction given the Captains of the Danites are described by Smith as follows:

“Know ye not, brethren, that it will soon be your privilege to take !your respective companies and go out on a scout on the borders of the settlements, and take to yourselves spoils of the goods of the ungodly Gentiles? for it is written, the riches of the Gentiles shall be 'consecrated to my people, the house of Israel; and thus you will waste away the Gentiles by robbing and plundering them of their property; and in this way we will build up the kingdom of God, and roll forth the little stone that Daniel saw cut out of the mountain without hands, and roll forth until it filled the whole earth. For this is the very way that God destines to build up His kingdom in the last days. If any of us should be recognized, who can harm us? for we will stand by each other and defend one another in all things. . . . I would swear a lie to clear any of you; and if this would not do, I would put them or him under the sand as Moses did the Egyptian; and in this way we will consecrate much unto the Lord.” This militancy, combined with claims of almost universal authority by Smith and Rigdon and the behavior of the Mormon settlers in Missouri led to much resentment on the part of the non-Mormons, now called “Gentiles”. In fact the Church militancy led Thomas B. Marsh, President of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to break with Smith and to establish his own Church the Church of Jesus Christ, the Lambs Wife. President Governor Boggs of Missouri issued an order that the Mormons should be exterminated and driven from Missouri. Among other things this led to a brutal and bloody attack by 200 Missouri militiamen on a Mormon settlement at Haun’s Hill. Many Mormons were killed. The fighting in Caldwell county became so intense that it is referred to as the Mormon Wars. It took 2500 Missouri militiamen to put down the rebellion. Governor Boggs ordered that Smith should be executed for treason. This outrageous order fortunately was never obeyed but the charge of treason remained. Smith and other Church leaders were arrested and imprisoned in a jail in Liberty, Missouri. They were allowed to escape and moved to an area in Illinois on the Mississippi river across from Iowa. Smith named his new town Nauvoo.

The Mormons regrouped in 1840 and by 1844 Nauvoo was the second most populous city in the State of Illinois. Joseph Smith’s vision of a Kingdom of God under his leadership came to full flowering in Nauvoo. Nauvoo had received a charter from the State Legislature allowing them to raise a well organized militia. Joseph became the Mayor, Chief Justice of the Nauvoo Municipal court and Lieutenant General and Commander of the Nauvoo militia. This militia contained close to 3000 troops compared with 8500 troops in the United States Army at that time.

In 1842 Smith established a new Anointed Council for the Church, a select group of individuals who received their endowments directly from Smith. In 1844, three months before his death Smith established the ultra-secret Council of Fifty which promptly named him King, Priest and ruler over Israel on earth. Smith had now been practicing plural marriage, i.e. polygamy, for some time but he now authorized plural marriage for all Mormons. This is remarkable because plural marriage is explicitly condemned and declared to be an abomination in the Book of Mormon (Book of Jacob 2: 24, 27). He also instituted baptism for the dead.

Smith declared in a public sermon on May 12, 1844 “I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the Kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation to revolutionize the world”. These events and others led to the development of a strong dissenting movement led by William Law, one of the previous strongest supporters of Smith. On Sunday May 26, 1844 Smith gave a public response to the dissenters:

“God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil——all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole Church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! In this statement he also denied plural marriages when the fact is he had anywhere from 30 -50 wives at that time.

The dissenters established an opposition newspaper the Nauvoo Expositor. The paper criticized the developing theocracy and autocracy in Nauvoo, and also criticized the newly established doctrine of plural marriage to which they took great exception. Smith ordered the Expositor’s printing presses destroyed and for this he was arrested by order of Governor Ford of Illinois. Smith was subsequently imprisoned in the jail at Carthage, the county seat. Unfortunately but not by design Joseph Smith was not provided with adequate protection by the governor’s forces and on June 27, 1844 he was murdered in his cell along with his brother Hyrum.

After the death of Smith, on April 5, 1845 Brigham Young became President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. On April 6, 1844 under Young’s leadership the Twelve Apostles issued the following declaration. For its audacity and scope it should be read in full: PROCLAMATION

OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST, OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS. To all the King's of the World; To the President of the United States of America; To the Governors of the several States; And to the Rulers and People of all Nations: GREETING: KNOW YE:—— THAT the kingdom of God has come: as has been predicted by ancient prophets, and prayed for in all ages; even that kingdom which shall fill the whole earth, and shall stand for ever. The great Eloheem Jehovah has been pleased once more to speak from the heavens: and also to commune with man upon the earth, by means of open visions, and by the ministration of HOLY MESSENGERS. By this means the great and eternal High Priesthood, after the Order of his Son, even the Apostleship, has been restored; or, returned to the earth. This High Priesthood, or Apostleship, holds the keys of the kingdom of God, and power to bind on earth that which shall be bound in heaven; and to loose on earth that which shall be loosed in heaven. And, in fine, to do, and to administer in all things pertaining to the ordinances, organization, government and direction of the kingdom of God.

The proclamation continues for a dozen pages of unbelievable claims and assertions.

Mormon Theology

What is discussed here briefly is the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints with its headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah. The Church teaches that after the death of Jesus there was a Great Apostasy. In its own words: Following the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted and killed many Church members, and other Church members drifted from the principles taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles. The Apostles were killed and the priesthood authority including the keys to direct and receive revelation for the Church was taken from the earth Because the Church was no longer led by priesthood authority and revelation, error crept into Church teachings. Good people and much truth remained, but the gospel as established by Jesus Christ was lost. This necessitated a Restoration of the Church which took place starting in 1820 with the first vision of Joseph Smith Jr, followed by Smith’’s discovery of the golden plates and the inscribed Book of Mormon, and many subsequent revelations claimed by Joseph Smith. The Priesthood authority (first Aaronic then Melchisedek) was conferred on Joseph Smith by Christ’’s Apostles Peter James and John. As a result Smith now claimed to possess the Fullness of the Gospel. Joseph Smith clearly was a Bible scholar, otherwise he would never have known about Melchizedek, a rather obscure figure in the Bible. The Priesthood of Mechizedek is mentioned only in three books of the Bible; Genesis, Psalms and Hebrews. In Genesis 14 Abram, after rescuing Lot in battle, is blessed by Melchizedek, king of Salem ( Jerusalem), who is described as a "priest of God Most High." In return Abram gives King Melchizedek a tenth of his spoils of battle. In Psalm 110 the psalmist states that his personal lord has been made by the Lord on High a "priest forever in the order of Melchizedek." The unknown author of Hebrews in chapters 6-7 identifies Jesus as a "priest forever in the order of Melchizedek." Further this author claims that the Melchizedek Priesthood is superior to the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood by virtue of Abram giving Melchizedek a tenth of his spoils of battle, thus implying the superiority of Christianity over Judaism. Obviously Hebrews makes quite different theological points than does Joseph Smith.

On April 6, 1844 in the King Follett Discourse Joseph Smith described his view of the nature of God (Journal of Discourses vol 6):

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,-I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form-like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another. In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power"-to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious-in a manner, to lay down his body and take up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,-namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one,-from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me. In 1857, at the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City Brigham Young said this: I want to tell you, each and every one of you, that you are well acquainted with God our heavenly Father, or the great Eloheim. You are all well acquainted with Him, for there is not a soul of you but what has lived in His house and dwelt with Him year after year; and yet you are seeking to become acquainted with Him, when the fact is, you have merely forgotten what you did know. I told you a little last Sabbath about forgetting things. There is not a person here to-day but what is a son or a daughter of that Being. In the spirit world their spirits were first begotten and brought forth, and they lived there with their parents for ages before they came here. This, perhaps, is hard for many to believe, but it is the greatest nonsense in the world not to believe it. If you do not believe it, cease to call Him Father; and when you pray, pray to some other character. Young also said this: Now to the facts in the case; all the difference between Jesus Christ and any other man that ever lived on the earth, from the days of Adam until now, is simply this, the Father, after He had once been in the flesh, and lived as we live, obtained His exaltation, attained to thrones, gained the ascendancy over principalities and powers, and had the knowledge and power to create-to bring forth and organize the elements upon natural principles. This He did after His ascension, or His glory, or His eternity, and was actually classed with the Gods, with the beings who create, with those who have kept the celestial law while in the flesh, and again obtained their bodies. Then He was prepared to commence the work of creation, as the Scriptures teach. It is all here in the Bible; I am not telling you a word but what is contained in that book. Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth. This is the origin of the Mormon concept of great numbers of spirit babies, sired by God, that oblige Mormon women to provide earthly bodies for.

In Mormon theology God the Father and God the Son, i.e. Jesus Christ, are two distinct persons each with glorified perfect bodies of flesh and blood. The body of God looks human in appearance but is perfect beyond description. Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Testament and created the world. God is the father of Jesus’’ spirit body but also is the literal father of Jesus’’ physical body. Mormons believe in the physical resurrection of Christ and that after his resurrection his spirit and physical bodies reunited and he is the living head of the Church. Mormons believe that in the Great Apostasy the Priesthood of Christ was lost. In fact, at the time of Christ’’s resurrection there was no Priesthood connected to or associated with Christ or any of his Apostles or followers.

Although Mormon theology contains some elements of Christianity it is not Christian theology nor does it reflect Christian understandings of the nature of God and Christ. In addition nor does it reflect Christian history. Indeed it is diametrically opposed to what is known historically about Christianity. Joseph Smith said to his followers ““Ye are the children of Israel and of the seed of Abraham.”” Mormonism can best be understood as a fourth Abrahamic faith.

Joseph Smith and Muhammed

Joseph Smith and Muhammed each claimed to be the last, not merely the latest, but the last Prophet of God. Each created a Holy Book to support his claim and a new religion to implement his claim in the world. In creating the Koran Muhammed plagiarized extensively from the Old Testament of the Bible. In fact of the twenty five Prophets of Islam twenty two are in the Bible including Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Joseph, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus. In creating the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith also borrowed extensively from the Bible. But in addition he wrote an incredible fable of the migration of Jewish tribes to the New World 600 years before Christ. Muhammed and Joseph Smith each believed that his religion would one day control the entire world. from them every fingertip.’’

In the words of David Bigler, author of the book The Forgotten Kingdom; The Mormon Theocracy in the American West 1847-1896 (Utah State University Press, 1998) the grandiose goals of the Mormons were as follows: "Accepting any suffering or hardship, its people set out to accomplish an incredibly ambitious and confrontational purpose. This was to sweep away all other nations of the world and make ready for the coming of the Lord, and to do this within their own lifetimes. ““For the destiny of the Mormon kingdom was to roll forth to world dominion, to prevail over the kingdoms of the earth, as a condition of Christ’’s return to inaugurate his millennial reign.”” "

Both Muhammed and Joseph Smith claimed to have been visited by Angels. In the case of Muhammed it was the Angel Gabriel who, not coincidentally was the Angel in the Gospel of Luke who told Mary of the coming birth of Jesus. In the case of Smith it was the Angel Moroni who in the Book of Mormon had been a member of one of the Jewish tribes that had come to the New World so many years before Christ.

Islam and Mormonism both experienced succession crises on the death of the founder. In Islam the succession went to Abu Bakr a close follower of Muhammed and not to a family member Ali, husband of Fatima Muhammed’’s daughter. This led to the split in Islam to the Sunni and Shia traditions. In the case of Joseph Smith the succession went to a close follower of Smith, Brigham Young, and not to Smith’s son Joseph Smith III. The Church split into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The latter movement in 2001 became the Community of Christ a Christian denomination.

Joseph Smith was well aware of the life of Muhammed and the ““Sword of Islam.”” In a sworn affidavit a close follower of Smith,Thomas B. Marsh, made the following comments:

“The Prophet inculcates the notion, and it is believed by every true Mormon, that Smith's prophecies are superior to the laws of the land. I have heard the Prophet say that he would yet tread down his enemies, and walk over their dead bodies; and if he was not let alone, he would be a second Mohammed to this generation, and that he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky mountains to the Atlantic ocean; that like Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was, 'the Alcoran or the Sword.' So should it be eventually with us, 'Joseph Smith or the Sword.'

In 1847 Brigham Young moved with his followers to what is now known as Utah, then part of Mexico, established his Kingdom of God on earth and named it Deseret. He claimed land from the Rocky Mountains in present day Colorado to the Sierra Nevada in California. The violence associated with the Mormon Church disappeared after this fifty year theocracy in Utah, from 1847 -1896. The better part of this period was characterized by violence and rebellion against federal officials and indeed against the authority of the United States government. In 1857 President Buchanan sent federal troops to Utah to put done the rebellion against the United States government. In May,1862 the War Department of the United States government ordered a regiment of troops from California under the command or Colonel Connor to Utah territory to protect the overland mail route. General Halleck, commanding officer of the U.S. army in Washington D.C issued the following order to Connor: "all arms and military munitions intended for use against the authority of the United States are liable for seizure." Coming just three years after the remnants of the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre had been viewed by U.S. troops, it is clear that this order was directed at the Mormon rebellion and not protecting the overland mail route. Colonel Connor, soon to become General Connor, established his camp on the heights above Salt Lake City with his guns trained on the city below. Brigham Young ordered his Navoo Legion to bring canon in to protect the city and his house. Fortunately Connor's guns and Young's cannon trained on each other were never fired. In 1896 the Mormon Church gave up polygamy and made other concessions in its political and theological structures in order to became a State in the United States of America.


TOPICS: Other Christian
KEYWORDS: christianity; inman; josephsmith; lds; ldschurch; mormon; mormonism
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To: MHGinTN
Excuse me, Resty, but you haven’t answered whether bodies went with Jesus’s body when He ascended before the disciples.

1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.

This is what the LDS mean when they say many of the plain and precious truths were not there in the scriptures

D&C 129
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—

2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.

4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.

5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.

6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—

7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.

801 posted on 11/16/2007 4:01:11 PM PST by restornu (Improve The Shining Moment! Don't let them pass you by... PRESS FORWARD MITT)
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To: restornu; colorcountry
That is because after Jesus Christ restored his Church and precious truths Book of Mormon and other standard works I am being taught by the Holy Spirit my discernment of things that have been dormant are now being made aware to me!

Would you explain that, resty? Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is providing you with facts that are not in the Bible? Are you recording or writing these down? Do you feel that you are having personal revelations? Are you reporting these to your Bishop?

I am NOT being facetious, but am sincerely wondering just what you mean by that statement.

802 posted on 11/16/2007 4:03:09 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (I have a tagline . I just don't think the forum police will allow me to use it. THEY'RE EVERYWHERE)
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To: JoshM99; MHGinTN; Utah Binger; Elsie; Colofornian; HonestConservative
I know others who have read the Book of Mormon and did not accept it. Often, there were outside influences that had more to do with it.

Please explain that statement. WHAT outside influences? And are you saying that those who reach a different conclusion are somehow not following your instructions correctly or they would reach the same conclusion you have?

803 posted on 11/16/2007 4:07:32 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (I have a tagline . I just don't think the forum police will allow me to use it. THEY'RE EVERYWHERE)
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To: Diego1618

Being buried by the Hand of God means he was returned to God. Thank you for finding that passage for me. I got a bit behind.

Thus, Moses is with God.

If you turn to Luke 9, you will see that Moses and Elias’ visit was not a vision, but an actual visit. (God speaks again where His Son is, showing they are separate beings.)

28 ¶ And it came to pass about an aeight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a bmountain to cpray.
29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, aand spake of his bdecease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his aglory, and the two men that stood with him.
33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my abeloved Son: hear him.
36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.


804 posted on 11/16/2007 4:08:31 PM PST by JoshM99
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To: JoshM99
See, there is confusion as to what is the correct interpretation on where did Elijah really go. To me, when he was taken to heaven, he was returned to God. Wouldn’t be nice to have modern day revelation to settle these misunderstandings?

Let me understand this correctly. I have given you scripture that plainly tells us that Our Lord says: "No man has ascended into Heaven". I have given you Biblical proof that Elijah was not taken out of this world. I have given you Biblical proof that Moses died and was buried.

You now say, "we need a modern day revelation to understand this all"?????????

Why? Isn't what I have given you in posts #727; 743; 793; & 798 abundantly clear?

805 posted on 11/16/2007 4:21:23 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: greyfoxx39
Would you explain that, resty? Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is providing you with facts that are not in the Bible? Are you recording or writing these down? Do you feel that you are having personal revelations? Are you reporting these to your Bishop?

Each calling receives keys from the Lord for that office they were called for and children of the Lord are not alone either they too received at Baptism Blessing from the Lord if they honor and strive to keep their Covenants aka the Lords Commandments. Each of us are allowed to receive by the power of the Holy Ghost answers to our questions. Many times the Holy Ghost has lead me in the scripture where to find answers the answer if is

D&C 8
5 Oh, remember these words, and keep my commandments. Remember, this is your gift.

6 Now this is not all thy gift; for you have another gift, which is the gift of Aaron; behold, it has told you many things;

7 Behold, there is no other power, save the power of God, that can cause this gift of Aaron to be with you.

8 Therefore, doubt not, for it is the gift of God; and you shall hold it in your hands, and do marvelous works; and no power shall be able to take it away out of your hands, for it is the work of God.

9 And, therefore, whatsoever you shall ask me to tell you by that means, that will I grant unto you, and you shall have knowledge concerning it.

10 Remember that without faith you can do nothing; therefore ask in faith. Trifle not with these things; do not ask for that which you ought not.

11 Ask that you may know the mysteries of God, and that you may translate and receive knowledge from all those ancient records which have been hid up, that are sacred; and according to your faith shall it be done unto you.

12 Behold, it is I that have spoken it; and I am the same that spake unto you from the beginning. Amen.

Now of course I don't translate scripture but my discernment has been sharpen and the impressions of what questions to ask to search the scriptures and understand more of the things of the Lord>

D&C 9
6 Do not murmur, my son(daughter), for it is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner.

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

Moroni 10
1 Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites; and I would that they should know that *more than four hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.

2 And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

8 And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them.

9 For behold, to one is given by the Spirit of God, that he may teach the word of wisdom;

10 And to another, that he may teach the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

806 posted on 11/16/2007 4:23:32 PM PST by restornu (Improve The Shining Moment! Don't let them pass you by... PRESS FORWARD MITT)
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To: Diego1618

No


807 posted on 11/16/2007 4:26:10 PM PST by JoshM99
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To: greyfoxx39

Please explain that statement. WHAT outside influences? And are you saying that those who reach a different conclusion are somehow not following your instructions correctly or they would reach the same conclusion you have?

______________________________

Outside influences can include family members that are not LDS. Personal struggles with keeping the commandments of the LDS church, often these include paying tithing, keeping the word of wisdom, or staying chaste. Wanting the approval of the world instead of joining the Church. Accepting what LDS antagonists say about the Church.

In the case where one believes that their prayers were answered that the Book of Mormon is not true, then they should follow their answer. Only God knows why He allowed them to receive such an answer. I cannot speculate what that reason would be.


808 posted on 11/16/2007 4:34:25 PM PST by JoshM99
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To: JoshM99
If you turn to Luke 9, you will see that Moses and Elias’ visit was not a vision, but an actual visit.

So then we are to ignore [Matthew 17:9] which plainly says it was a vision. Luke was not an eyewitness to the events of Our Lord.....Matthew was.

Being buried by the Hand of God means he was returned to God.

Being buried by the hand of God means that God did not want anyone to find his tomb.

[Hebrews 11:23] By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

[Hebrews 11:39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: What do you think these words mean????

809 posted on 11/16/2007 4:38:16 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: JoshM99
Outside influences can include family members that are not LDS. Personal struggles with keeping the commandments of the LDS church, often these include paying tithing, keeping the word of wisdom, or staying chaste. Wanting the approval of the world instead of joining the Church. Accepting what LDS antagonists say about the Church.

In the case where one believes that their prayers were answered that the Book of Mormon is not true, then they should follow their answer. Only God knows why He allowed them to receive such an answer. I cannot speculate what that reason would be.

My! Are you saying that if only we were WILLING to be WORTHY by LDS standards and pure enought to receive the message IN THE APPROVED WAY it could be possible that God would provide the answer that you espouse...in other words, that the Book of Mormon is true?

I can understand why you say "Only God knows why He allowed them to receive such an answer. I cannot speculate what that reason would be."

810 posted on 11/16/2007 5:15:19 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (I have a tagline . I just don't think the forum police will allow me to use it. THEY'RE EVERYWHERE)
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To: MHGinTN

Meant to ping you to 810


811 posted on 11/16/2007 5:28:52 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (I have a tagline . I just don't think the forum police will allow me to use it. THEY'RE EVERYWHERE)
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To: greyfoxx39
Thank you, it wasn’t necessary to ping me, m’Lady. I have chosen to stop responding to the hive brigade at this time. Dealing with their deceptions, mischaracterizations of posts, twisting of Bible verses, and their willful blindness is becoming oppressive, plus the religion forum is not where I need to be debating these folks.
812 posted on 11/16/2007 5:34:32 PM PST by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: JoshM99
Why are they praying to Christ, their Lord and God after being commanded to pray to God the Father is an interesting question. He doesn’t reprimand them at all at any time so I consider it a non issue. Is it a contradiction? I don’t think so since Christ taught them how to pray and obviously he was pleased with their prayers even if they were to him and not to the Father....Without gloss, I can think of reasons why he didn’t reprimand them, some would be because Christ is resurrected at this point and had completed his earthly mission, taking his place at the right hand of God. Further, they were ever so grateful to have their Savior among them that perhaps being sticklers for what they were just taught wasn’t a high priority at that time.

You have GOT to be kidding!!!

OK, put this scenario in your head. Your eldest brother is the most respected LDS missionary in the world. And you look up to him perhaps higher than anyone.

You do something repeatedly and incessantly in relating to him--something not forbidden by Scripture. In fact, after you do these things, his reaction is: that Josh's elder brother blessed Josh...and his countenance did smile upon Josh, and the light of his countenance did shine upon Josh and he did smile upon Josh. [Words italicized above are directly from 3 Nephi 19 in response to Jesus being directly prayed to]

Now, I'm watching the interaction between you and your brother. And then I say to you, "Hey, Josh, did you see your brother's blessing, his bright countenance, and constant smiling upon you as you continued to do XYZ?"

And your reaction? "Boy, I wonder why he didn't reprimand me? Obviously he was pleased with me. Boy, I guess he decided not to be a stickler with me over that."

Now that's a contradictory opinion: Knowing full well that the divine one is pleased with you very specifically over ongoing, incessant prayer; and yet you still wondering why, "Why no reprimand? I guess he just wasn't being a stickler."

Not only do you fail to recognize obvious contradictions in the Book of Mormon, but this brainwashing: You see with your very own eyes that an action is pleasing to Jesus. Yet what? You don't trust your own vision. Why? Because your general authorities have told you not to. Why don't you ask God for direct wisdom about whether or not it's OK to pray directly to Jesus? Have you ever done that?

And during this Christmas season, as we think about the Christ child, why don't you consider praying directly to him...ongoing...incessantly...as these Nephite characters did.

813 posted on 11/16/2007 6:37:21 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: JoshM99
...you say we are polytheists, which is technically true...

You know, I'm glad you are forthright about this. Because I can't tell you how many LDS I've run across who either openly deny it (including some LDS FREEPERS), or quietly deny it. By "quietly" I mean that when challenged on it, repeatedly, no response.

You never once addressed how it is we are made in His image.

Personality. Emotion. Will. Strength. Intellect. Character. Shall I go on? Jesus says, "God is SPIRIT [not God contains a spirit]. And we MUST [not we might] worship Him in Spirit and Truth." (John 4:24)

Since God the Father has a body...

Besides Joseph, who says?

The Bible talks about wings. You don't think of Him as some giant bird, do you? the Bible talks about the Holy Ghost appearing as a dove. So now you think the Godhead is just some physical bird family?

...it is difficult to comprehend this essence idea of a trinity.

Well, indeed. If we could fully figure out all the mysteries of the Godhead, then just say to Him, "Move over. Oh, I'm glad you kept the throne warm for me." [Oh, I forgot...up to 20% of temple recommend-earning LDS are perhaps already planning to say something similar to that, thinking that Lucipher's words of Isaiah 14:12-14 & 2 Nephi 24:12-14 was a good thing to utter]

814 posted on 11/16/2007 6:46:32 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Resolute Conservative
Therein lies the problem. You advocate using Smith’s translation and the BoM to justify each other. That is like letting my 8 year old decide his punishment for a wrong doing.

I am telling people (the 8 year olds) to ask God (an adult).

The test is to take a non Smith translation ( original KJV, NIV, or RSV are good enough ) and compare to the BoM and if the BoM contradicts the Bible then it is heresy and a lie.

The KJV as shipped by the church has the JST as footnotes most people never read footnotes anyway, so it's a standard JST, so the free one shipped by the church should do nicely, but go ahead and read any KJV, read the BOM, pray about both, and see what God says. God never said to use a "special" copy, he said to test try, ask and knock.

I have not read the NIV, or the RSV and am reluctant to endorse them unread, I tried to read a new translation once and when they had Jesus say "Yo dude!" to one of his apostles, I was through. I do not remember what the "Translation" was, it's too painful to think about what they did to the beauty of the scriptures.

I have an idea, don't get your Bible from us, pray about it and read whatever Bible God tells you to for the test, how's that? Also note, the Bible and the Book of Mormon will not say exactly the same thing. IF they did one would be a copy of the other, but it should be compatible. The spirit should be the same, the testimony from God should be the same, the basic message of the divinity of the savior, his mission, the gospel those should be the same.

Agreed?
815 posted on 11/16/2007 6:53:00 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Resolute Conservative
I Said: “changes are small like Pharaoh hardening his hart instead of the lord hardening Pharaoh’s heart”

You Said That is not a small change that is changing the meaning and that is wrong.

It is a small change, but a significant one. my point was not that the changes did not change the meaning for if there was no change to meaning, why make the change? My point was that the changes were not for the most part more than a few words and fit into footnotes at the bottom of the page.

Consider this, if the meaning was wrong, and God directed the change, then it is right.

Here is a joke I enjoy on several levels, I hope you will read it in the proper spirit, if it offends you then I apologize for it is not meant to.


A young monk arrives at the monastery.

He is assigned to helping the other monks in copying the old canons and laws of the church by hand. He notices, however, that all of the monks are copying from copies, not from the original manuscript.

So, the new monk goes to the head abbot to question this, pointing out that if someone made even a small error in the first copy, it would never be picked up.

In fact, that error would be continued in all of the subsequent copies.

The head monk, says, "We have been copying from the copies for centuries, but you make a good point, my son."

So, he goes down into the dark caves underneath the monastery where the original manuscripts are held as archives in a locked vault that hasn't been opened for hundreds of years.

Hours go by and nobody sees the old abbot.

So, the young monk gets worried and goes down to look for him. He sees him banging his head against the wall and wailing, "We missed the "R", we missed the "R".

His forehead is all bruised and he is crying uncontrollably. The young monk asks the old abbot, "What's wrong, father?"

With a choking voice, the old abbot replies,

"The word was celebrate."


Delphiuser
816 posted on 11/16/2007 7:02:57 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: JoshM99
The LDS worship God and no other [Post 702]

OK, now you're really confusing me.

You are back to where you started with post 199, when you said: Further, for the record, the LDS doctrine is that one worships God the Father, through his Son, Jesus Christ, and no one else...

Now you're telling me (again) you worship one God.

In post 329, you said: I will only add that in worshiping Christ, it is not in alternative of worshiping His Father. The focus is still on God the Father...

So here you 'fessed up to worshipping two gods.

You reinforced this in post 361: ...yes, in worshiping God and Jesus, who is God’s son, you can say the LDS worship more than one god...

And again in post 628: You asked previously if the LDS worship Jesus Christ and I gave you conflicting answers, but corrected myself as hopefully you previously saw. My confusion is that our emphasis is always on the Father and all our actions are to the Father as He has commanded, through His Son. Still, we worship Christ as our Savior, God’s only Begotten and our Eldest Brother.

And yet again in post 629: We both worship God the Father and His Son, the Christ, but since you morph the two together as the same essence and we claim they are separate beings, you say we are polytheists, which is technically true, but our worship is still the same: We both worship God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.

So for four consecutive posts to me, you said you worship two Gods. But the "bread" of this sandwich--the first and the last, you said you worship the Father & no one else and that you worship God and no one else.

You wanna tell me again how it is you worship God and no one else if God and His Son are two separate beings? And why is it you keep providing conflicting responses?

817 posted on 11/16/2007 7:23:56 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: JoshM99
All Protestant faiths derive from the Catholic Church...

Umm...Have you ever read 1 Corinthians 12:3? "No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit." [Context was that in a society where you are persecuted for your faith, this won't just be a line fed to you by your church...easy believism]

I guess I didn't know that the Catholic Church was my "Holy Spirit."

Have you ever read John 12:32? "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to myself."

Hebrews also talks about Jesus who is the "author" of our faith.

So, the Holy Spirit is our confessor of "Jesus as Lord" based upon Jesus who draws us and scripts our very faith life. No churchianity there, right?

If you think that the true source of salvation is in a religious structure or a prophet, then no wonder the LDS church treats crosses like they are vampires. The apostle Paul said: "May I never boast except in the cross of our LORd Jesus Christ..." (Gal. 6:14)

the fullness of the Gospel was taken. And when that happened, they were withdrawn from leading Christ’s church.

Have you ever seen these quotes from LDS "prophets"?

Joseph Fielding Smith said: [There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).

Brigham Young stated: "no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289).

This personality cult devotion to Smith counters Christ's own words: "...I [Jesus Christ, not some "organizer" named Joe Smith] will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt 16:18)

Whatever church Jesus Christ said he was building there, it wasn't going to be a shabby structure, which the LDS directly accuse Jesus of building. It wasn't going to "go to pot" in 300+ or 1800 years, like the LDS commonly accuse Jesus of doing. In fact, the force of the future tense from this passage depicts a mighty, strong church--and one so sustained by an Almighty, strong Christ. In fact, Rev. 20:8-9 says this Church will never be overthrown.

Furthermore, LDS label Paul as a false prophet when Paul told the Ephesians: "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.." (Eph. 3:21)

Any Lds here care to point out exactly how it is that Paul falsely prophesied by mentioning which "age" that the church failed to bring glory to God? How can there "be glory in the church...throughout all ages" if it's a total apostasy? Exactly what glory was brought to God by the church in the years 400 to 1800 if the current writers defaming the entire Christian church are right?

Furthermore, LDS label the Holy Spirit a liar when the Spirit prophesied that the apostasy would be partial: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, thaqt in the latter times some shall depart from the faith..." (1 Tim. 4:1)

Why is that the Holy Spirit speaks so "expressly" about this matter, yet LDS are so hostile to what He has to say?

Do you want to explain why you and all other true believing Mormons continue to publicly demean Jesus to be a false prophet (for not keeping His words of Matt 16:18); demean apostle Paul as a false prophet (claiming that Eph. 3:21 was a lie); and label the Holy Spirit a liar by pointing to a total apostasy when the Holy Spirit said it would be partial?

I warn you in the eyes of God to be careful how you respond here, for our words reverberate throughout eternity. Please, go back even in the JST version and re-read Matthew 16:18; Ephesians 3:21; and 1 Timothy 4:1. And let the authority of the Bible which you and other LDS say so strongly that you believe and adhere to, and then ask yourself, who is more authoritative: The Author of the Bible, or mere men who popped up upon the scene as Johnny-come-latelies 1800 years after the fact.

818 posted on 11/16/2007 7:41:16 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: DelphiUser

Hehe!


819 posted on 11/16/2007 8:45:54 PM PST by TheDon (The DemocRAT party is the party of TREASON! Overthrow the terrorist's congress!)
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To: Old Mountain man

Hey, friend - where, in the comment to which you refer, did I say anything about an ORIGINAL manuscript?


820 posted on 11/16/2007 8:56:11 PM PST by DennisR (Look around - God gives countless clues that He does, indeed, exist.)
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