Posted on 11/14/2007 8:28:07 AM PST by fortcollins
Joseph Smith Jr. was born December 23, 1805 in Sharon, Vermont. It is interesting that Brigham Young and John Humphrey Noyes, founder of the Oneida Community in upstate New York, also were born in Vermont. Joseph Smith Sr. lost considerable money in speculative business ventures putting the family in near poverty and resulting in seven moves in the first fourteen years of Joseph Smith’s life. Around the year 1815 his family settled in Palmyra New York, just north of the finger lakes, and not far from the Oneida Free Community. He was limited in education and training, had little interest in farming or other types of work, and his interests moved into the spiritual and mystical realms. He spent a fair amount of time searching for buried treasure claiming miraculous powers but not succeeding.
In his autobiography “The Pearl of Great Price”, Joseph Smith relates that he became disturbed by the religious squabbles among Methodists, Baptists and Presbyterians in the community and indeed in his own family. He elected to follow advice he had found in James 1:5 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” In the spring of 1820 Smith went to the woods to pray and to seek God. In his words he was sized by a “great power that left him speechless and in darkness.” He called on God for deliverance and then saw a great light over his head and heard a voice saying “This is my beloved son, hear him.” His next visit occurred three years later on September 21, 1823 when he was visited by an Angel named Maroni who directed him to a nearby hill where he would find a hidden book written on gold plates along with information on how to translate the inscribed words. The translated book became the Book of Mormon.
In 1829 Smith and his friend baptized each other and were visited, in his account, by John the Baptist who conferred on them both the Priesthood of Aaron. Later that year, although the date is uncertain, they were visited by the Apostles Peter, James and John who conferred on them both the both the Priesthood of Melchizedek, the King of Salem (Jerusalem) who lived during the time of the patriarch Abraham. As described in the Doctrines and Covenants of the Mormon Church Smith continued to receive revelations from God until his death.
In 1830 Joseph Smith established his Church in upstate New York and called it initially the Church of Christ. Later he moved his Church to Kirtland, Ohio, then Caldwell County, Missouri and in 1839 to Nauvoo Illinois. As a result of events that happened in Nauvoo, to be discussed below, he was arrested, moved to a jail in the county seat, Carthage where he and his brother Hyrum were assassinated by an angry mob.
Book of Mormon
In 1830 Smith was directed by an encounter with the angel Moroni to a location near Palimyra, New York on a hill subsequently named Cumorah where he found golden plates These plates were miraculously translated by Smith which revealed that it was the Book of Mormon that had been inscribed on these plates. Only a small handful of Smith’s followers were allowed to see the plates. Smith published his translation in 1830 and the angel Moroni subsequently took the plates back.
The Book of Mormon describes the migration by boat of several Jewish tribes from what we now call Israel to what we now call the New World of North and South America 600 years before Christ. Two of these tribes were named the Nephites and the Lamanites. The Lamanites are described as marked by God with a darker skin color to identify their state of wickedness. After Christ’s resurrection he visited the New World and the Nephites and the Lamanites subsequently had several centuries of peaceful co-existence and cooperation. This ended with a massive battle on the hill Cumorah in which the Nephites were destroyed by the Lamanites. Mormons believe that American Indians are descendants of the Lamanites. In the Book of Ether, one of the books in the Book of Mormon, a people described as the Jaredites are described. Thes people were present at the Tower of Babel when human language was confounded but they fortunately escaped such confounding of their language. Approximately 2500 years before Christ the Jaredites by barge migrated to the New World. They grew to a civilization of two million people before they destroyed themselves by their own behavior just prior to the arrival of the Nephites and Lamanites.
This all is, of course, a fabulous fable for which there is not even minimally convincing archeological, anthropological or historical evidence. However to say it is a creative fable written by an individual with an exceptionally imaginative mind would be an understatement. History of Mormonism
The organizational meeting of the Church of Christ, the forerunner of what became the Mormon Church was held April 6, 1830. Smith and Cowdery met with a small number of their followers. A lay ministry was ordained with a priesthood and offices of deacon, teacher, and elder. Smith and Cowdery were ordained as Apostles of Jesus Christ and as first and second elders respectively. In 1831 the Church moved to Kirtland. Ohio and its name was changed to the Church of Latter Day Saints. Sidney Rigdon, a prominent restorationist minister and follower of Alexander Campbell converted to Mormonism, joined Smith’s nascent Church and brought a large number of “Cambellites” along with him. The Church of Latter Day Saints doubled in size. A Mormon temple was built in Kirtland. At that time a second Mormon gathering place was established in Independence, Jackson County, Missouri. Smith declared that the “City of Zion” would be built at that site. Construction was started but the temple was never built.
By 1837 the Church in Kirtland was unraveling with apostasy among the leadership and members and major financial irregularities in a bank Smith established. Smith, Rigdon and some of their followers fled from Kirtland to Missouri in the middle of the night. Dissenters in Kirtland reestablished the original Church of Christ and took possession of the temple. In 1836 the Mormon legislature had established the town of Far West, in Caldwell County as a place for Mormons to settle and so they did immediately. In 1838 Smith and Rigdon moved to Far West and had to struggle for Church leadership with Mormons already there and in Independence. Church leaders Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and William Wines Phelps were excommunicated by Smith and eventually fled Far West under threats for their lives. Cowdery and Whitmer were two of the three who claimed they had seen the golden plates. The Mormon Church now again under the leadership of Joseph Smith was reestablished and renamed the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, its present name.
In Far West Smith organized a paramilitary organization called the Danites, named in honor of the Jewish tribe of Dan of which Sampson was a member. Its role was to enforce religious conformity and protect the Mormons against the non Mormons. Secret instruction given the Captains of the Danites are described by Smith as follows:
“Know ye not, brethren, that it will soon be your privilege to take !your respective companies and go out on a scout on the borders of the settlements, and take to yourselves spoils of the goods of the ungodly Gentiles? for it is written, the riches of the Gentiles shall be 'consecrated to my people, the house of Israel; and thus you will waste away the Gentiles by robbing and plundering them of their property; and in this way we will build up the kingdom of God, and roll forth the little stone that Daniel saw cut out of the mountain without hands, and roll forth until it filled the whole earth. For this is the very way that God destines to build up His kingdom in the last days. If any of us should be recognized, who can harm us? for we will stand by each other and defend one another in all things. . . . I would swear a lie to clear any of you; and if this would not do, I would put them or him under the sand as Moses did the Egyptian; and in this way we will consecrate much unto the Lord.” This militancy, combined with claims of almost universal authority by Smith and Rigdon and the behavior of the Mormon settlers in Missouri led to much resentment on the part of the non-Mormons, now called “Gentiles”. In fact the Church militancy led Thomas B. Marsh, President of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to break with Smith and to establish his own Church the Church of Jesus Christ, the Lambs Wife. President Governor Boggs of Missouri issued an order that the Mormons should be exterminated and driven from Missouri. Among other things this led to a brutal and bloody attack by 200 Missouri militiamen on a Mormon settlement at Haun’s Hill. Many Mormons were killed. The fighting in Caldwell county became so intense that it is referred to as the Mormon Wars. It took 2500 Missouri militiamen to put down the rebellion. Governor Boggs ordered that Smith should be executed for treason. This outrageous order fortunately was never obeyed but the charge of treason remained. Smith and other Church leaders were arrested and imprisoned in a jail in Liberty, Missouri. They were allowed to escape and moved to an area in Illinois on the Mississippi river across from Iowa. Smith named his new town Nauvoo.
The Mormons regrouped in 1840 and by 1844 Nauvoo was the second most populous city in the State of Illinois. Joseph Smith’s vision of a Kingdom of God under his leadership came to full flowering in Nauvoo. Nauvoo had received a charter from the State Legislature allowing them to raise a well organized militia. Joseph became the Mayor, Chief Justice of the Nauvoo Municipal court and Lieutenant General and Commander of the Nauvoo militia. This militia contained close to 3000 troops compared with 8500 troops in the United States Army at that time.
In 1842 Smith established a new Anointed Council for the Church, a select group of individuals who received their endowments directly from Smith. In 1844, three months before his death Smith established the ultra-secret Council of Fifty which promptly named him King, Priest and ruler over Israel on earth. Smith had now been practicing plural marriage, i.e. polygamy, for some time but he now authorized plural marriage for all Mormons. This is remarkable because plural marriage is explicitly condemned and declared to be an abomination in the Book of Mormon (Book of Jacob 2: 24, 27). He also instituted baptism for the dead.
Smith declared in a public sermon on May 12, 1844 “I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the Kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation to revolutionize the world”. These events and others led to the development of a strong dissenting movement led by William Law, one of the previous strongest supporters of Smith. On Sunday May 26, 1844 Smith gave a public response to the dissenters:
“God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil——all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole Church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! In this statement he also denied plural marriages when the fact is he had anywhere from 30 -50 wives at that time.
The dissenters established an opposition newspaper the Nauvoo Expositor. The paper criticized the developing theocracy and autocracy in Nauvoo, and also criticized the newly established doctrine of plural marriage to which they took great exception. Smith ordered the Expositor’s printing presses destroyed and for this he was arrested by order of Governor Ford of Illinois. Smith was subsequently imprisoned in the jail at Carthage, the county seat. Unfortunately but not by design Joseph Smith was not provided with adequate protection by the governor’s forces and on June 27, 1844 he was murdered in his cell along with his brother Hyrum.
After the death of Smith, on April 5, 1845 Brigham Young became President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. On April 6, 1844 under Young’s leadership the Twelve Apostles issued the following declaration. For its audacity and scope it should be read in full: PROCLAMATION
OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST, OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS. To all the King's of the World; To the President of the United States of America; To the Governors of the several States; And to the Rulers and People of all Nations: GREETING: KNOW YE:—— THAT the kingdom of God has come: as has been predicted by ancient prophets, and prayed for in all ages; even that kingdom which shall fill the whole earth, and shall stand for ever. The great Eloheem Jehovah has been pleased once more to speak from the heavens: and also to commune with man upon the earth, by means of open visions, and by the ministration of HOLY MESSENGERS. By this means the great and eternal High Priesthood, after the Order of his Son, even the Apostleship, has been restored; or, returned to the earth. This High Priesthood, or Apostleship, holds the keys of the kingdom of God, and power to bind on earth that which shall be bound in heaven; and to loose on earth that which shall be loosed in heaven. And, in fine, to do, and to administer in all things pertaining to the ordinances, organization, government and direction of the kingdom of God.
The proclamation continues for a dozen pages of unbelievable claims and assertions.
Mormon Theology
What is discussed here briefly is the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints with its headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah. The Church teaches that after the death of Jesus there was a Great Apostasy. In its own words: Following the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted and killed many Church members, and other Church members drifted from the principles taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles. The Apostles were killed and the priesthood authority including the keys to direct and receive revelation for the Church was taken from the earth Because the Church was no longer led by priesthood authority and revelation, error crept into Church teachings. Good people and much truth remained, but the gospel as established by Jesus Christ was lost. This necessitated a Restoration of the Church which took place starting in 1820 with the first vision of Joseph Smith Jr, followed by Smith’’s discovery of the golden plates and the inscribed Book of Mormon, and many subsequent revelations claimed by Joseph Smith. The Priesthood authority (first Aaronic then Melchisedek) was conferred on Joseph Smith by Christ’’s Apostles Peter James and John. As a result Smith now claimed to possess the Fullness of the Gospel. Joseph Smith clearly was a Bible scholar, otherwise he would never have known about Melchizedek, a rather obscure figure in the Bible. The Priesthood of Mechizedek is mentioned only in three books of the Bible; Genesis, Psalms and Hebrews. In Genesis 14 Abram, after rescuing Lot in battle, is blessed by Melchizedek, king of Salem ( Jerusalem), who is described as a "priest of God Most High." In return Abram gives King Melchizedek a tenth of his spoils of battle. In Psalm 110 the psalmist states that his personal lord has been made by the Lord on High a "priest forever in the order of Melchizedek." The unknown author of Hebrews in chapters 6-7 identifies Jesus as a "priest forever in the order of Melchizedek." Further this author claims that the Melchizedek Priesthood is superior to the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood by virtue of Abram giving Melchizedek a tenth of his spoils of battle, thus implying the superiority of Christianity over Judaism. Obviously Hebrews makes quite different theological points than does Joseph Smith.
On April 6, 1844 in the King Follett Discourse Joseph Smith described his view of the nature of God (Journal of Discourses vol 6):
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,-I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form-like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another. In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power"-to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious-in a manner, to lay down his body and take up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.
Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,-namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one,-from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me. In 1857, at the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City Brigham Young said this: I want to tell you, each and every one of you, that you are well acquainted with God our heavenly Father, or the great Eloheim. You are all well acquainted with Him, for there is not a soul of you but what has lived in His house and dwelt with Him year after year; and yet you are seeking to become acquainted with Him, when the fact is, you have merely forgotten what you did know. I told you a little last Sabbath about forgetting things. There is not a person here to-day but what is a son or a daughter of that Being. In the spirit world their spirits were first begotten and brought forth, and they lived there with their parents for ages before they came here. This, perhaps, is hard for many to believe, but it is the greatest nonsense in the world not to believe it. If you do not believe it, cease to call Him Father; and when you pray, pray to some other character. Young also said this: Now to the facts in the case; all the difference between Jesus Christ and any other man that ever lived on the earth, from the days of Adam until now, is simply this, the Father, after He had once been in the flesh, and lived as we live, obtained His exaltation, attained to thrones, gained the ascendancy over principalities and powers, and had the knowledge and power to create-to bring forth and organize the elements upon natural principles. This He did after His ascension, or His glory, or His eternity, and was actually classed with the Gods, with the beings who create, with those who have kept the celestial law while in the flesh, and again obtained their bodies. Then He was prepared to commence the work of creation, as the Scriptures teach. It is all here in the Bible; I am not telling you a word but what is contained in that book. Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth. This is the origin of the Mormon concept of great numbers of spirit babies, sired by God, that oblige Mormon women to provide earthly bodies for.
In Mormon theology God the Father and God the Son, i.e. Jesus Christ, are two distinct persons each with glorified perfect bodies of flesh and blood. The body of God looks human in appearance but is perfect beyond description. Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Testament and created the world. God is the father of Jesus’’ spirit body but also is the literal father of Jesus’’ physical body. Mormons believe in the physical resurrection of Christ and that after his resurrection his spirit and physical bodies reunited and he is the living head of the Church. Mormons believe that in the Great Apostasy the Priesthood of Christ was lost. In fact, at the time of Christ’’s resurrection there was no Priesthood connected to or associated with Christ or any of his Apostles or followers.
Although Mormon theology contains some elements of Christianity it is not Christian theology nor does it reflect Christian understandings of the nature of God and Christ. In addition nor does it reflect Christian history. Indeed it is diametrically opposed to what is known historically about Christianity. Joseph Smith said to his followers ““Ye are the children of Israel and of the seed of Abraham.”” Mormonism can best be understood as a fourth Abrahamic faith.
Joseph Smith and Muhammed
Joseph Smith and Muhammed each claimed to be the last, not merely the latest, but the last Prophet of God. Each created a Holy Book to support his claim and a new religion to implement his claim in the world. In creating the Koran Muhammed plagiarized extensively from the Old Testament of the Bible. In fact of the twenty five Prophets of Islam twenty two are in the Bible including Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Joseph, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus. In creating the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith also borrowed extensively from the Bible. But in addition he wrote an incredible fable of the migration of Jewish tribes to the New World 600 years before Christ. Muhammed and Joseph Smith each believed that his religion would one day control the entire world. from them every fingertip.’’
In the words of David Bigler, author of the book The Forgotten Kingdom; The Mormon Theocracy in the American West 1847-1896 (Utah State University Press, 1998) the grandiose goals of the Mormons were as follows: "Accepting any suffering or hardship, its people set out to accomplish an incredibly ambitious and confrontational purpose. This was to sweep away all other nations of the world and make ready for the coming of the Lord, and to do this within their own lifetimes. ““For the destiny of the Mormon kingdom was to roll forth to world dominion, to prevail over the kingdoms of the earth, as a condition of Christ’’s return to inaugurate his millennial reign.”” "
Both Muhammed and Joseph Smith claimed to have been visited by Angels. In the case of Muhammed it was the Angel Gabriel who, not coincidentally was the Angel in the Gospel of Luke who told Mary of the coming birth of Jesus. In the case of Smith it was the Angel Moroni who in the Book of Mormon had been a member of one of the Jewish tribes that had come to the New World so many years before Christ.
Islam and Mormonism both experienced succession crises on the death of the founder. In Islam the succession went to Abu Bakr a close follower of Muhammed and not to a family member Ali, husband of Fatima Muhammed’’s daughter. This led to the split in Islam to the Sunni and Shia traditions. In the case of Joseph Smith the succession went to a close follower of Smith, Brigham Young, and not to Smith’s son Joseph Smith III. The Church split into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The latter movement in 2001 became the Community of Christ a Christian denomination.
Joseph Smith was well aware of the life of Muhammed and the ““Sword of Islam.”” In a sworn affidavit a close follower of Smith,Thomas B. Marsh, made the following comments:
“The Prophet inculcates the notion, and it is believed by every true Mormon, that Smith's prophecies are superior to the laws of the land. I have heard the Prophet say that he would yet tread down his enemies, and walk over their dead bodies; and if he was not let alone, he would be a second Mohammed to this generation, and that he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky mountains to the Atlantic ocean; that like Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was, 'the Alcoran or the Sword.' So should it be eventually with us, 'Joseph Smith or the Sword.'
In 1847 Brigham Young moved with his followers to what is now known as Utah, then part of Mexico, established his Kingdom of God on earth and named it Deseret. He claimed land from the Rocky Mountains in present day Colorado to the Sierra Nevada in California. The violence associated with the Mormon Church disappeared after this fifty year theocracy in Utah, from 1847 -1896. The better part of this period was characterized by violence and rebellion against federal officials and indeed against the authority of the United States government. In 1857 President Buchanan sent federal troops to Utah to put done the rebellion against the United States government. In May,1862 the War Department of the United States government ordered a regiment of troops from California under the command or Colonel Connor to Utah territory to protect the overland mail route. General Halleck, commanding officer of the U.S. army in Washington D.C issued the following order to Connor: "all arms and military munitions intended for use against the authority of the United States are liable for seizure." Coming just three years after the remnants of the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre had been viewed by U.S. troops, it is clear that this order was directed at the Mormon rebellion and not protecting the overland mail route. Colonel Connor, soon to become General Connor, established his camp on the heights above Salt Lake City with his guns trained on the city below. Brigham Young ordered his Navoo Legion to bring canon in to protect the city and his house. Fortunately Connor's guns and Young's cannon trained on each other were never fired. In 1896 the Mormon Church gave up polygamy and made other concessions in its political and theological structures in order to became a State in the United States of America.
They just don’t get it or are purposely blinding themselves.
If you do not believe that God is the one and only always been God ( not a man raised to diety ) and Jesus is his son who died for us and we are saved by His grace alone you are not practicing Christianity and therefore are not saved by Christ.
If those are not your beliefs you are in a false religion as defined by the Bible ( Christianity ).
OK, perhaps you misread me.
We’ve since recovered from the mistake that was made by the establishing person. The mistake was to make 100 the freezing point of water.
(grin)
| Subject: | For Vahn (because by the time I'd finished typing, the thread was closed) |
| Date: | Nov 14 13:41 |
| Author: | LongGone2 |
| Mail Address: |
| And I did do a "ctrl C" this time! The following is my ideas about using ONLY history and he says/she says as a way to recognize mormonism for what it is: "40 years ago, living in Utah, there were no sources available to do serious historical research about the church. Two things got me thinking: (1) The Civil Rights movement and (2) Literature and philosophy (none of which even mentioned the mormon church). I watched the March on Montgomery; I watched the March on Washington; I watched Mississippi burning; and nothing could convince me that the God who sent Jesus would approve of bigotry and hate. And even when I was small I didn't understand why suntans were OK but dark skin was a "curse". I also didn't understand why earthly symbolism was so important in defining "truth" for an omnipotent God. It's understandable why men need symbolism and imagery, but why would God need to see that--He knows what's in our heart, right? Which made the baptisms for the dead all that more confusing. Why would God need to see an earthly symbolic cleansing for a soul that is in the spiritual world? I also noticed that mormons seem to have a peculiar scale of judgment for people. The word of wisdom was good health advise, but mormons used it to judge people's souls. Mormons determined a person's goodness based on cigarettes, booze and coffee. I watched the non-smoking good people engage in hurtful gossip; I watched a non-coffee-drinking bishop cheat his less affluent neighbor; I began to wonder why only Dr's and Lawyers were stake presidents and why it was always the most most affluent or socially connected who were bishops. I began to see that the WoW had nothing to do with ethics or honesty or kindness. Besides, some of the greatest geniuses of history were drunks or homosexual. Why would God value my snotty bishop over Beethoven or Socrates? I read a lot, and it occurred to me that mormonism is the antithesis of freedom and liberty and philosophy. Edmund Burke would never have been a mormon; neither would Paine or Jefferson or Franklin or Lincoln. Certainly the genius of Shakespeare or Dostoyevsky couldn't be confined to the absolutist narrowness of mormon doctrine. And I got to thinking about "truth". The sum of the universe's "truth" is contained in arcane ceremony and absolute obedience to the proclamation of a single man? I read about the methods used by the NAZI's in Germany and the justification for the totalitarianism in the USSR and it all sounded erily like the "justifications" I'd heard for the church's policies and questionable practices and beliefs. I also figured out that no man--and I mean no regularly wired man--could be bed hopping with dozens and dozens of women and be thinking about spiritual matters. I couldn't believe that the God who gave us the mind of Einstein, the philosophy of Jesus and the music of Mozart and Beethover could be as narrow-minded as the mormon god. You don't need history to help you figure out that baptism for the dead is absurd and that marriage for eternity is too cartoonish to be real and that a woman might consider Hell a better location than the CK if she has to subject her "body" to a god-man and stay pregnant forever (and, BTW, watch her kids murdered and abused by that god-husband-sperm donor). Yes, indeed, read everything you can about church history, but really. The "answer" is outside mormonism and outside mormonism's claims. The unlimited wonder of the universe and experiences of billions of individuals on this planet could not possibly be contained in the Sysiphean exercise of arcane rituals of mormonism. |
| Subject: | Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-men... n/t |
| Date: | Nov 14 14:00 |
| Author: | Wavey |
| Mail Address: |
| Subject: | Yes!!! Exactly right, LG2! |
| Date: | Nov 14 14:05 |
| Author: | et in Utah ego |
| Mail Address: |
| This is not unlike my own route out of "the church"--bottom line: everything intelligent or beautiful or principled or amazing had been created completely outside of mormonism. Within mormonism, nothing. Outside of it, everything. |
| Subject: | Re: For Vahn (because by the time I'd finished typing, the thread was closed) |
| Date: | Nov 14 14:15 |
| Author: | Vahn |
| Mail Address: | vahn_gali@hotmail.com |
| While I believe that your post is slightly biased, I do agree with the general point you've made. What I mean is that I do believe that most Bishops are good people and NOT cheating on their wives... although most PEOPLE in general are good people as well. Likewise not all drunkards are the smartest people. XD I'm wandering out of my comfort zone to read some things NOT written by Mormons, but the reason I'm using so many church related sources is because (admittedly,) I fear. It's natural to fear in my position, as most of you have been there. As the fears gradually begin to alleviate, I find it easier to come out of my hole. The sun is bright to those that have never seen it. It's kind of pathetic when you stop to think about it, but it's just where I'm at. On a side note, I do find the WoW becoming more and more of a funny concept, especially after discovering the Joseph Smith drank wine the night before he was murdered. Anyway, thanks for the remarks. |
| Subject: | For Vahn (a relevant repost of some thoughts) |
| Date: | Nov 14 14:39 |
| Author: | Truman |
| Mail Address: | plaarb@gmail.com |
| Thank you, LG2, for posting this. I wanted to add some thoughts, if I may - a repost of something I shared on the exmormon email list: On this issue of scriptural truth, I think there's something to be added from a more qualitative perspective. Focusing on the factual details of BoM "truthfulness" - such things as geography, horses, steel, etc., is clearly a vital tool for exposing the BoM. I agree that the factual impossibilities and anachronisms raised by these issues compellingly demonstrate the fraud of the book. My only quarrel with this approach is that it would not have worked for me while I was Mormon, and it also seems too much like a mirror image of the legalistic, Mormon mindset I fled. I approach the BoM - and Mormonism in general - differently. The question of truth, particularly in the context of a religion that claims to be the one, true church on earth, is not just about facts. Truth, in this context, is also - and most fundamentally - about GOODNESS. If the Book of Mormon is, as JS claimed, "the most correct book on the face of the earth", it seems to me that claim bears some examination from more than simply a factual perspective. Mormons would agree with that much, which gets me that much closer to being heard. Setting aside its ultimate truth or falsity for the moment, Smith's oft-repeated boast is misleading because it is actually a narrow claim masquerading as a broad claim. Put another way: If we ask, "Is the BoM the BEST book on the face of the earth?", does the BoM pass that test? For example: Is the Book of Mormon the best moral guide on the planet? Is the Book of Mormon the best guide for living a kind, loving and charitable life on the planet? Is the Book of Mormon the most complete guide for living a good life available on earth? Is the Book of Mormon, page for page, phrase for phrase, the most uplifting book on the planet? Now, Mormons will undoubtedly knee-jerkedly respond affirmatively to these questions, but they invariably wither upon the most basic examination. When the missionaries stop by as they sometimes do, I invite them to open to 3 Nephi 9:1-13 - one of my favorites - among the most violent, repulsive passages in all of "scripture". "How can you, in good conscience, worship a Heavenly Father who murders tens of thousands of his own children?" I ask. I like this approach because the TRUTH of their book is not in question, the GOODNESS of it is. And it is that sense of innate goodness and perfection from which Mormons derive such a sense of superiority and holier-than-thou confidence. Having deflated that and put their presumptive goodness on trial, they are at sea without a compass. Steel is good. Horses are good. Coins are good. Wheat is good. All BoM anachronisms are good, as is DNA and the stunning absence of archeological evidence in post-Nephite/Lamanite America. But divinely-wrought mass filicide, to my mind, is the best measure of why the BoM cannot be true, in either the factual sense, or qualitative sense of "truth". There simply is no acceptable explanation - only excuses - as to why a Heavenly Father, with all his godly powers, would find himself with no other option than to kill tens of thousands - perhaps millions? - of his own children, in anger. The Book of Mormon is not true because it is not good. Once I recognized that, no more evidence was necessary. All the best, Truman |
| Subject: | Re: For Vahn (a relevant repost of some thoughts) |
| Date: | Nov 14 16:43 |
| Author: | Vahn |
| Mail Address: | vahn_gali@hotmail.com |
| Thanks for the remarks again. I'm currently sitting at one of the computers in the History Center of the Harold B. Lee Library @ BYU. I looked up every last one of the quotes I had discovered online in the Journal of Discourses here at the Library. Things such as the Adam-God Theory to Blood Atonement to NO mention of God the Father of Jesus Christ but rather a "Holy Angel," the racist remarks about the negroes, and even a few extra things I picked out my own that are WAAAAY weird, have really caused my eyes to open. No wonder the church asks us to "Live by faith and not evidence." The evidence is shocking... It's REALLY written in there. No wonder we're convinced to not trust the internet, because most people don't really have any malicious intent toward the church, they're just posting the truth. Interesting discoveries. Everything that I found online was verbatim when compared to the actual sources in the JoD... I almost feel like an idiot for doubting, but hey, I'm a skeptic. More on topic, I'm checking out a book by B.H. Roberts, "Studies of the Book of Mormon." I hear it ought to put my mind to rest in a lot of ways. Thanks for all the comments, I've thoroughly enjoyed this, and feel free to post more. ~Brian (Vahn) |
| Subject: | You did good, Vahn! |
| Date: | Nov 14 17:09 |
| Author: | Timothy |
| Mail Address: | tweedn@charter.net |
| Straight to the horse's mouth. That's the only way to know for sure! The most damning evidence concerning the church can be found in its official writs. The fools are meticulous record keepers! This is the Gospel according to Timothy ... If it looks like it, smells like it and acts like it, then you call it what it is! Timothy |
Oh that comes from the Masons. The handshake etc etc etc.
Word has it that Joseph Smith joined the Masons and was bumped up to 33 degree almost instantly.
Apparently he took their "secret" stuff and incorporated it with Mormanizm.
Then you have missed a bunch of doctrine, as you can see on this thread about kolob. It isn't about where He exists now, but where your god came from. And where he came from shows that he was not exclusive as the bible teaches. The mormon teaching is that their god is not unique, although they try to get around this by saying that he is unique to earth, or rather, by avoiding to talk about kolob to other than the elite mormons, I guess.
LDS teaching that states .... .Jesus Christ, who is one with the Father in purpose
But that is not Christian doctrine. LDS doctrine is essentially 3 gods, not one triunne God. Big difference. Eternally big.
If man is to be perfect and is in the image of his creator, then why can he not become like his creator?
Have you read Genesis 3 lately? Satan deceived Eve with the same temptation - "you can be like God".
Do you have any idea what the biblical meaning of being perfect means? It does not mean to be like God. Which is everlasting? God, or the Principles that define God? If God lives on another planet, it is irrelevant to the Atonement of Christ and our faith in God and his Son, our Savior.
Show me where you can find in scripture (not the BoM) that God is defined by principles? And yes, it is totally revelant to the Atonment as to WHO God is. Totally.
From an earlier post by FastCoyote
This is from President Hinckley: “Are we Christians? Of course we are Christians. We believe in Christ. We worship Christ. We take upon ourselves in solemn covenant His holy name. The Church to which we belong carries His name. He is our Lord, our Savior, our Redeemer through whom came the great Atonement with salvation and eternal life.” If you would like a reference, just let me know.
Certainly this is consistent with your understanding. I will only add that in worshiping Christ, it is not in alternative of worshiping His Father. The focus is still on God the Father. The LDS doctrine of 3 members in the Godhead is unique and does separate it from other Christian faiths, but it does not make them non-Christian, which is what I am trying to address.
I misspoke on this point and clarified it above.
Sorry for the confusion and misunderstanding.
My apologies.
WHICH ‘first vision’?
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The one found in the Pearl of Great Price.
Yes, I am well aware of the different accounts.
So you believe it is ‘Jesus redemptive Cross plus all that you can do.’ How very denigrating to the Jesus of our Salvation ... he couldn’t do it sufficiently so we need to help the process and be worthy of His part.
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I certainly don’t denigrate Jesus Christ, nor do I deny that it is by grace that are all men saved.
I merely pointed out the LDS doctrine on grace, more fully, it is:
“Grace is the help or strength given through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the grace of God, everyone who has lived will be resurrected—our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, never again to be separated. Through His grace, the Lord also enables those who live His gospel to repent and be forgiven.”
What your beliefs in grace is is of your own accord. I merely am sharing what is LDS doctrine. I am not here to convince others what grace should mean to them, but to offer that the LDS Church accepts grace as necessary.
Lorenzo Snow said “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” This is acceptable LDS doctrine.
This was also mentioned by Joseph Smith in the King Follette sermon, previously quoted at the start of this thread.
It is definitely unique to any main stream Christian faith, but does not preclude LDS from being Christian or worshiping God.
Thankis for the link Elsie. Unbelievable. And sad.
Oh, but it DOES preclude LDS from Christianity. The God of the bible is the God of Christianity. Unchanging. Forever. He always was what He always is, that is his name. LDS worships a different god. And you just admitted to that by agreeing with Lorezo Snow and Joseph Smith. It does not preclude LDS from worshipping a (false) god, but it does very much preclude them from worshipping the God of bible.
They just don’t get it or are purposely blinding themselves.
If you do not believe that God is the one and only always been God ( not a man raised to diety ) and Jesus is his son who died for us and we are saved by His grace alone you are not practicing Christianity and therefore are not saved by Christ.
If those are not your beliefs you are in a false religion as defined by the Bible ( Christianity ).
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Faith and religion are personal matters. I accept Jesus as my personal savior and worship God the Father through his Son. The LDS religion may be peculiar in many aspects, but it is no less Christian than any other as Christ is at the Head of the LDS Church in its beliefs and doctrines.
May I ask you: What is your view of Eternity and how do you plan to spend it once reunited with God?
Yes it does.
You may worship your god but he is not the Christian God that did not come from man but has always been and will always be God. Man will not become a god and God did not come from man.
You are playing the typical Mormon game of adopting Christian terms to subvert what you really believe and want people to see.
If you want to be known as a Christian then say, “I believe in the one true God that has always been God and I believe in His son Jesus who died for my sins and by his grace alone I am saved.”
Say that.
I have focused on the basic principles of the LDS Church. Kolob is of little significance to basic principles. There is no official LDS position on Kolob or that God lives on or near Kolob or that it is important to know. If you are discussing speculations, that’s another matter entirely.
The LDS position is that God created the universe and that Christ’s atonement is universal for all God’s children. Further, Christ lived, died, and was resurrected on this world.
As described in Revelation and I will be at his feet worshiping Him.
No you are worshiping the god of LDS so you need to call him LDS god or whatever you are not worshiping the Christian God. The Christ you claim to center in your church was not the brother of Lucifer and is in triune with God.
Can you say that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in the same, NOT the same in purpose only? You cannot if you are an LDS faithful.
Do you have any idea what the biblical meaning of being perfect means? It does not mean to be like God. Which is everlasting? God, or the Principles that define God? If God lives on another planet, it is irrelevant to the Atonement of Christ and our faith in God and his Son, our Savior.
Show me where you can find in scripture (not the BoM) that God is defined by principles? And yes, it is totally revelant to the Atonment as to WHO God is. Totally.
______________________________
My understanding is that Christ commanded us all to be perfect, in the way the he is perfect. That commandment came from God. If we are to be perfect like Christ, who is perfect like his Father, how are we not to strive to be perfect like the Father is?
My question about God and Principles was rhetorical. There is no answer. Did God define Principles He embodies or do the Principles He embodies define Him? Did God create gravity or did it always exist? Did God always exist or was there something pre-God? For my own personal belief, God created the universe and we are His children, in His image, placed on this Earth for a mortal probation to prove ourselves to Him.
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