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Joseph Smith: Creator of the Fourth Abrahamic Faith; Mormonism
Auhtor's website ^ | September 15, 2007 | G. Richard Jansen

Posted on 11/14/2007 8:28:07 AM PST by fortcollins

Joseph Smith Jr. was born December 23, 1805 in Sharon, Vermont. It is interesting that Brigham Young and John Humphrey Noyes, founder of the Oneida Community in upstate New York, also were born in Vermont. Joseph Smith Sr. lost considerable money in speculative business ventures putting the family in near poverty and resulting in seven moves in the first fourteen years of Joseph Smith’s life. Around the year 1815 his family settled in Palmyra New York, just north of the finger lakes, and not far from the Oneida Free Community. He was limited in education and training, had little interest in farming or other types of work, and his interests moved into the spiritual and mystical realms. He spent a fair amount of time searching for buried treasure claiming miraculous powers but not succeeding.

In his autobiography “The Pearl of Great Price”, Joseph Smith relates that he became disturbed by the religious squabbles among Methodists, Baptists and Presbyterians in the community and indeed in his own family. He elected to follow advice he had found in James 1:5 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” In the spring of 1820 Smith went to the woods to pray and to seek God. In his words he was sized by a “great power that left him speechless and in darkness.” He called on God for deliverance and then saw a great light over his head and heard a voice saying “This is my beloved son, hear him.” His next visit occurred three years later on September 21, 1823 when he was visited by an Angel named Maroni who directed him to a nearby hill where he would find a hidden book written on gold plates along with information on how to translate the inscribed words. The translated book became the Book of Mormon.

In 1829 Smith and his friend baptized each other and were visited, in his account, by John the Baptist who conferred on them both the Priesthood of Aaron. Later that year, although the date is uncertain, they were visited by the Apostles Peter, James and John who conferred on them both the both the Priesthood of Melchizedek, the King of Salem (Jerusalem) who lived during the time of the patriarch Abraham. As described in the Doctrines and Covenants of the Mormon Church Smith continued to receive revelations from God until his death.

In 1830 Joseph Smith established his Church in upstate New York and called it initially the Church of Christ. Later he moved his Church to Kirtland, Ohio, then Caldwell County, Missouri and in 1839 to Nauvoo Illinois. As a result of events that happened in Nauvoo, to be discussed below, he was arrested, moved to a jail in the county seat, Carthage where he and his brother Hyrum were assassinated by an angry mob.

Book of Mormon

In 1830 Smith was directed by an encounter with the angel Moroni to a location near Palimyra, New York on a hill subsequently named Cumorah where he found golden plates These plates were miraculously translated by Smith which revealed that it was the Book of Mormon that had been inscribed on these plates. Only a small handful of Smith’s followers were allowed to see the plates. Smith published his translation in 1830 and the angel Moroni subsequently took the plates back.

The Book of Mormon describes the migration by boat of several Jewish tribes from what we now call Israel to what we now call the New World of North and South America 600 years before Christ. Two of these tribes were named the Nephites and the Lamanites. The Lamanites are described as marked by God with a darker skin color to identify their state of wickedness. After Christ’s resurrection he visited the New World and the Nephites and the Lamanites subsequently had several centuries of peaceful co-existence and cooperation. This ended with a massive battle on the hill Cumorah in which the Nephites were destroyed by the Lamanites. Mormons believe that American Indians are descendants of the Lamanites. In the Book of Ether, one of the books in the Book of Mormon, a people described as the Jaredites are described. Thes people were present at the Tower of Babel when human language was confounded but they fortunately escaped such confounding of their language. Approximately 2500 years before Christ the Jaredites by barge migrated to the New World. They grew to a civilization of two million people before they destroyed themselves by their own behavior just prior to the arrival of the Nephites and Lamanites.

This all is, of course, a fabulous fable for which there is not even minimally convincing archeological, anthropological or historical evidence. However to say it is a creative fable written by an individual with an exceptionally imaginative mind would be an understatement. History of Mormonism

The organizational meeting of the Church of Christ, the forerunner of what became the Mormon Church was held April 6, 1830. Smith and Cowdery met with a small number of their followers. A lay ministry was ordained with a priesthood and offices of deacon, teacher, and elder. Smith and Cowdery were ordained as Apostles of Jesus Christ and as first and second elders respectively. In 1831 the Church moved to Kirtland. Ohio and its name was changed to the Church of Latter Day Saints. Sidney Rigdon, a prominent restorationist minister and follower of Alexander Campbell converted to Mormonism, joined Smith’s nascent Church and brought a large number of “Cambellites” along with him. The Church of Latter Day Saints doubled in size. A Mormon temple was built in Kirtland. At that time a second Mormon gathering place was established in Independence, Jackson County, Missouri. Smith declared that the “City of Zion” would be built at that site. Construction was started but the temple was never built.

By 1837 the Church in Kirtland was unraveling with apostasy among the leadership and members and major financial irregularities in a bank Smith established. Smith, Rigdon and some of their followers fled from Kirtland to Missouri in the middle of the night. Dissenters in Kirtland reestablished the original Church of Christ and took possession of the temple. In 1836 the Mormon legislature had established the town of Far West, in Caldwell County as a place for Mormons to settle and so they did immediately. In 1838 Smith and Rigdon moved to Far West and had to struggle for Church leadership with Mormons already there and in Independence. Church leaders Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and William Wines Phelps were excommunicated by Smith and eventually fled Far West under threats for their lives. Cowdery and Whitmer were two of the three who claimed they had seen the golden plates. The Mormon Church now again under the leadership of Joseph Smith was reestablished and renamed the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, its present name.

In Far West Smith organized a paramilitary organization called the Danites, named in honor of the Jewish tribe of Dan of which Sampson was a member. Its role was to enforce religious conformity and protect the Mormons against the non Mormons. Secret instruction given the Captains of the Danites are described by Smith as follows:

“Know ye not, brethren, that it will soon be your privilege to take !your respective companies and go out on a scout on the borders of the settlements, and take to yourselves spoils of the goods of the ungodly Gentiles? for it is written, the riches of the Gentiles shall be 'consecrated to my people, the house of Israel; and thus you will waste away the Gentiles by robbing and plundering them of their property; and in this way we will build up the kingdom of God, and roll forth the little stone that Daniel saw cut out of the mountain without hands, and roll forth until it filled the whole earth. For this is the very way that God destines to build up His kingdom in the last days. If any of us should be recognized, who can harm us? for we will stand by each other and defend one another in all things. . . . I would swear a lie to clear any of you; and if this would not do, I would put them or him under the sand as Moses did the Egyptian; and in this way we will consecrate much unto the Lord.” This militancy, combined with claims of almost universal authority by Smith and Rigdon and the behavior of the Mormon settlers in Missouri led to much resentment on the part of the non-Mormons, now called “Gentiles”. In fact the Church militancy led Thomas B. Marsh, President of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to break with Smith and to establish his own Church the Church of Jesus Christ, the Lambs Wife. President Governor Boggs of Missouri issued an order that the Mormons should be exterminated and driven from Missouri. Among other things this led to a brutal and bloody attack by 200 Missouri militiamen on a Mormon settlement at Haun’s Hill. Many Mormons were killed. The fighting in Caldwell county became so intense that it is referred to as the Mormon Wars. It took 2500 Missouri militiamen to put down the rebellion. Governor Boggs ordered that Smith should be executed for treason. This outrageous order fortunately was never obeyed but the charge of treason remained. Smith and other Church leaders were arrested and imprisoned in a jail in Liberty, Missouri. They were allowed to escape and moved to an area in Illinois on the Mississippi river across from Iowa. Smith named his new town Nauvoo.

The Mormons regrouped in 1840 and by 1844 Nauvoo was the second most populous city in the State of Illinois. Joseph Smith’s vision of a Kingdom of God under his leadership came to full flowering in Nauvoo. Nauvoo had received a charter from the State Legislature allowing them to raise a well organized militia. Joseph became the Mayor, Chief Justice of the Nauvoo Municipal court and Lieutenant General and Commander of the Nauvoo militia. This militia contained close to 3000 troops compared with 8500 troops in the United States Army at that time.

In 1842 Smith established a new Anointed Council for the Church, a select group of individuals who received their endowments directly from Smith. In 1844, three months before his death Smith established the ultra-secret Council of Fifty which promptly named him King, Priest and ruler over Israel on earth. Smith had now been practicing plural marriage, i.e. polygamy, for some time but he now authorized plural marriage for all Mormons. This is remarkable because plural marriage is explicitly condemned and declared to be an abomination in the Book of Mormon (Book of Jacob 2: 24, 27). He also instituted baptism for the dead.

Smith declared in a public sermon on May 12, 1844 “I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the Kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation to revolutionize the world”. These events and others led to the development of a strong dissenting movement led by William Law, one of the previous strongest supporters of Smith. On Sunday May 26, 1844 Smith gave a public response to the dissenters:

“God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil——all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole Church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! In this statement he also denied plural marriages when the fact is he had anywhere from 30 -50 wives at that time.

The dissenters established an opposition newspaper the Nauvoo Expositor. The paper criticized the developing theocracy and autocracy in Nauvoo, and also criticized the newly established doctrine of plural marriage to which they took great exception. Smith ordered the Expositor’s printing presses destroyed and for this he was arrested by order of Governor Ford of Illinois. Smith was subsequently imprisoned in the jail at Carthage, the county seat. Unfortunately but not by design Joseph Smith was not provided with adequate protection by the governor’s forces and on June 27, 1844 he was murdered in his cell along with his brother Hyrum.

After the death of Smith, on April 5, 1845 Brigham Young became President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. On April 6, 1844 under Young’s leadership the Twelve Apostles issued the following declaration. For its audacity and scope it should be read in full: PROCLAMATION

OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST, OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS. To all the King's of the World; To the President of the United States of America; To the Governors of the several States; And to the Rulers and People of all Nations: GREETING: KNOW YE:—— THAT the kingdom of God has come: as has been predicted by ancient prophets, and prayed for in all ages; even that kingdom which shall fill the whole earth, and shall stand for ever. The great Eloheem Jehovah has been pleased once more to speak from the heavens: and also to commune with man upon the earth, by means of open visions, and by the ministration of HOLY MESSENGERS. By this means the great and eternal High Priesthood, after the Order of his Son, even the Apostleship, has been restored; or, returned to the earth. This High Priesthood, or Apostleship, holds the keys of the kingdom of God, and power to bind on earth that which shall be bound in heaven; and to loose on earth that which shall be loosed in heaven. And, in fine, to do, and to administer in all things pertaining to the ordinances, organization, government and direction of the kingdom of God.

The proclamation continues for a dozen pages of unbelievable claims and assertions.

Mormon Theology

What is discussed here briefly is the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints with its headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah. The Church teaches that after the death of Jesus there was a Great Apostasy. In its own words: Following the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted and killed many Church members, and other Church members drifted from the principles taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles. The Apostles were killed and the priesthood authority including the keys to direct and receive revelation for the Church was taken from the earth Because the Church was no longer led by priesthood authority and revelation, error crept into Church teachings. Good people and much truth remained, but the gospel as established by Jesus Christ was lost. This necessitated a Restoration of the Church which took place starting in 1820 with the first vision of Joseph Smith Jr, followed by Smith’’s discovery of the golden plates and the inscribed Book of Mormon, and many subsequent revelations claimed by Joseph Smith. The Priesthood authority (first Aaronic then Melchisedek) was conferred on Joseph Smith by Christ’’s Apostles Peter James and John. As a result Smith now claimed to possess the Fullness of the Gospel. Joseph Smith clearly was a Bible scholar, otherwise he would never have known about Melchizedek, a rather obscure figure in the Bible. The Priesthood of Mechizedek is mentioned only in three books of the Bible; Genesis, Psalms and Hebrews. In Genesis 14 Abram, after rescuing Lot in battle, is blessed by Melchizedek, king of Salem ( Jerusalem), who is described as a "priest of God Most High." In return Abram gives King Melchizedek a tenth of his spoils of battle. In Psalm 110 the psalmist states that his personal lord has been made by the Lord on High a "priest forever in the order of Melchizedek." The unknown author of Hebrews in chapters 6-7 identifies Jesus as a "priest forever in the order of Melchizedek." Further this author claims that the Melchizedek Priesthood is superior to the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood by virtue of Abram giving Melchizedek a tenth of his spoils of battle, thus implying the superiority of Christianity over Judaism. Obviously Hebrews makes quite different theological points than does Joseph Smith.

On April 6, 1844 in the King Follett Discourse Joseph Smith described his view of the nature of God (Journal of Discourses vol 6):

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,-I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form-like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another. In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power"-to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious-in a manner, to lay down his body and take up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,-namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one,-from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me. In 1857, at the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City Brigham Young said this: I want to tell you, each and every one of you, that you are well acquainted with God our heavenly Father, or the great Eloheim. You are all well acquainted with Him, for there is not a soul of you but what has lived in His house and dwelt with Him year after year; and yet you are seeking to become acquainted with Him, when the fact is, you have merely forgotten what you did know. I told you a little last Sabbath about forgetting things. There is not a person here to-day but what is a son or a daughter of that Being. In the spirit world their spirits were first begotten and brought forth, and they lived there with their parents for ages before they came here. This, perhaps, is hard for many to believe, but it is the greatest nonsense in the world not to believe it. If you do not believe it, cease to call Him Father; and when you pray, pray to some other character. Young also said this: Now to the facts in the case; all the difference between Jesus Christ and any other man that ever lived on the earth, from the days of Adam until now, is simply this, the Father, after He had once been in the flesh, and lived as we live, obtained His exaltation, attained to thrones, gained the ascendancy over principalities and powers, and had the knowledge and power to create-to bring forth and organize the elements upon natural principles. This He did after His ascension, or His glory, or His eternity, and was actually classed with the Gods, with the beings who create, with those who have kept the celestial law while in the flesh, and again obtained their bodies. Then He was prepared to commence the work of creation, as the Scriptures teach. It is all here in the Bible; I am not telling you a word but what is contained in that book. Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth. This is the origin of the Mormon concept of great numbers of spirit babies, sired by God, that oblige Mormon women to provide earthly bodies for.

In Mormon theology God the Father and God the Son, i.e. Jesus Christ, are two distinct persons each with glorified perfect bodies of flesh and blood. The body of God looks human in appearance but is perfect beyond description. Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Testament and created the world. God is the father of Jesus’’ spirit body but also is the literal father of Jesus’’ physical body. Mormons believe in the physical resurrection of Christ and that after his resurrection his spirit and physical bodies reunited and he is the living head of the Church. Mormons believe that in the Great Apostasy the Priesthood of Christ was lost. In fact, at the time of Christ’’s resurrection there was no Priesthood connected to or associated with Christ or any of his Apostles or followers.

Although Mormon theology contains some elements of Christianity it is not Christian theology nor does it reflect Christian understandings of the nature of God and Christ. In addition nor does it reflect Christian history. Indeed it is diametrically opposed to what is known historically about Christianity. Joseph Smith said to his followers ““Ye are the children of Israel and of the seed of Abraham.”” Mormonism can best be understood as a fourth Abrahamic faith.

Joseph Smith and Muhammed

Joseph Smith and Muhammed each claimed to be the last, not merely the latest, but the last Prophet of God. Each created a Holy Book to support his claim and a new religion to implement his claim in the world. In creating the Koran Muhammed plagiarized extensively from the Old Testament of the Bible. In fact of the twenty five Prophets of Islam twenty two are in the Bible including Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Joseph, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus. In creating the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith also borrowed extensively from the Bible. But in addition he wrote an incredible fable of the migration of Jewish tribes to the New World 600 years before Christ. Muhammed and Joseph Smith each believed that his religion would one day control the entire world. from them every fingertip.’’

In the words of David Bigler, author of the book The Forgotten Kingdom; The Mormon Theocracy in the American West 1847-1896 (Utah State University Press, 1998) the grandiose goals of the Mormons were as follows: "Accepting any suffering or hardship, its people set out to accomplish an incredibly ambitious and confrontational purpose. This was to sweep away all other nations of the world and make ready for the coming of the Lord, and to do this within their own lifetimes. ““For the destiny of the Mormon kingdom was to roll forth to world dominion, to prevail over the kingdoms of the earth, as a condition of Christ’’s return to inaugurate his millennial reign.”” "

Both Muhammed and Joseph Smith claimed to have been visited by Angels. In the case of Muhammed it was the Angel Gabriel who, not coincidentally was the Angel in the Gospel of Luke who told Mary of the coming birth of Jesus. In the case of Smith it was the Angel Moroni who in the Book of Mormon had been a member of one of the Jewish tribes that had come to the New World so many years before Christ.

Islam and Mormonism both experienced succession crises on the death of the founder. In Islam the succession went to Abu Bakr a close follower of Muhammed and not to a family member Ali, husband of Fatima Muhammed’’s daughter. This led to the split in Islam to the Sunni and Shia traditions. In the case of Joseph Smith the succession went to a close follower of Smith, Brigham Young, and not to Smith’s son Joseph Smith III. The Church split into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The latter movement in 2001 became the Community of Christ a Christian denomination.

Joseph Smith was well aware of the life of Muhammed and the ““Sword of Islam.”” In a sworn affidavit a close follower of Smith,Thomas B. Marsh, made the following comments:

“The Prophet inculcates the notion, and it is believed by every true Mormon, that Smith's prophecies are superior to the laws of the land. I have heard the Prophet say that he would yet tread down his enemies, and walk over their dead bodies; and if he was not let alone, he would be a second Mohammed to this generation, and that he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky mountains to the Atlantic ocean; that like Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was, 'the Alcoran or the Sword.' So should it be eventually with us, 'Joseph Smith or the Sword.'

In 1847 Brigham Young moved with his followers to what is now known as Utah, then part of Mexico, established his Kingdom of God on earth and named it Deseret. He claimed land from the Rocky Mountains in present day Colorado to the Sierra Nevada in California. The violence associated with the Mormon Church disappeared after this fifty year theocracy in Utah, from 1847 -1896. The better part of this period was characterized by violence and rebellion against federal officials and indeed against the authority of the United States government. In 1857 President Buchanan sent federal troops to Utah to put done the rebellion against the United States government. In May,1862 the War Department of the United States government ordered a regiment of troops from California under the command or Colonel Connor to Utah territory to protect the overland mail route. General Halleck, commanding officer of the U.S. army in Washington D.C issued the following order to Connor: "all arms and military munitions intended for use against the authority of the United States are liable for seizure." Coming just three years after the remnants of the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre had been viewed by U.S. troops, it is clear that this order was directed at the Mormon rebellion and not protecting the overland mail route. Colonel Connor, soon to become General Connor, established his camp on the heights above Salt Lake City with his guns trained on the city below. Brigham Young ordered his Navoo Legion to bring canon in to protect the city and his house. Fortunately Connor's guns and Young's cannon trained on each other were never fired. In 1896 the Mormon Church gave up polygamy and made other concessions in its political and theological structures in order to became a State in the United States of America.


TOPICS: Other Christian
KEYWORDS: christianity; inman; josephsmith; lds; ldschurch; mormon; mormonism
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To: nesnah

You are very detailed in your critical analysis of them. Was I right in my description of them: that they reminded me of the characters in the movie: Pleasantville? How do you compare them to the Jehovah Witness and the Seventh Day Adventist?/Just Asking - seoul62........


121 posted on 11/14/2007 10:10:56 AM PST by seoul62 (e)
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To: MacDorcha
Also, the Bible was Canonized with the understanding that it shall not be added to. Ever.

Sounds like: "We don't want to hear any more from you!"

122 posted on 11/14/2007 10:12:30 AM PST by TheDon (The DemocRAT party is the party of TREASON! Overthrow the terrorist's congress!)
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To: Colofornian

“Correct. Martin Harris and another “witness” say they saw them with ‘eyes of faith.’”

I was quoting the person I responded to. That was not my question about no one ever seeing them. And no, they did not say with the “eyes of faith,” but that they saw them in actuality. Read their own statement. They and the other 11 who saw them saw and handled them as well. This wasn’t some mental conjuration as you’re trying to make out: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/thrwtnss


123 posted on 11/14/2007 10:13:03 AM PST by Hillary4Penetentiary ("I hope Hillary is elected" Ala Senakreh, West Bank chief of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades)
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To: Hillary4Penetentiary

Wrong. I was a church member in good standing for about 10 years, my good Bro.

It was some of the docturnal weirdness that prompted me to investigate beyond the “party line”. Once I began looking deeper into FACTS, it became abundantly clear that it was a complete ruse.

So, I know of what I speak and don’t do so half-brained and off the cuff.

Here’s a good question for you: What is the source of the Book of Abraham?

Here’s another: What exactly was that little hub-bub about the Kinderhook Plates?


124 posted on 11/14/2007 10:13:57 AM PST by nesnah
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To: Blowtorch
However, I believe that most Mormons are Christians first

No, they are not Christian and for years they made that claim. They SAY they believe in Jesus, the son of God, but the problem is that God the Father of the bible and God the Father of Mormonism are very different. The Almight Creator God of the bible and in Christianity has always existed and has never and never will change. He created ALL things, visible and invisible.

The mormon god, was once a man on another planet somewhere with some hokey name and became a "god" and then created earth, had a son named Jesus, etc... So when they say that the believer that Jesus is the son of god, it is not the same as the Christian Son of God.

Different gods = different faiths.

125 posted on 11/14/2007 10:14:07 AM PST by lupie
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To: F15Eagle

John 10

30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


126 posted on 11/14/2007 10:15:07 AM PST by TheDon (The DemocRAT party is the party of TREASON! Overthrow the terrorist's congress!)
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To: seoul62

Really do not know much about the JWs or the SDAs.

They are very nice folks, I will say that, just a little misguided in their beliefs.


127 posted on 11/14/2007 10:15:14 AM PST by nesnah
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To: TerP26

South Park rocks. Good one. LOL


128 posted on 11/14/2007 10:17:41 AM PST by Captain Beyond (The Hammer of the gods! (Just a cool line from a Led Zep song))
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To: bpjam
In the event that this whole Mormon debate is solely about Romney (who is not my guy, btw), I’d like to know how his Mormon believes interfered with or helped him with the start up of Staples or the lobbying and managing of the SCL olympics? Did they keep the guy from going the job or show some signs of insanity which were just too obvious to ignore? Or, like more politicians, do things based on polls and pragmatism or the goal of getting elected or completing the task instead? If somebody can point out some substantial way that Romney would be unqualified because he is Mormon or some way that he would govern or lead which is contrary to conservatism based on his faith, then THAT would be of interest to me.

I'll answer this with a few distinct posts:

Simple: LDS leaders' historical role models (former LDS leaders) and the LDS god all have exhibited examples that it's OK to flip-flop on key social issues and the underlying theology of those. Having seen that's it's "OK" to do this, some (like Mitt) follow suit.

I call this the "Gumby" pattern. Let's first look at Mitt's "gumbility" (gumby flexibility). And then let's see what LDS role models he had where this kind of "gumbility" was perfectly fine:

Romney was against legal fake marriage ("gay marriage") while being for legal fake marriage (civil unions and dometic partnerships).

Romney underwent a pro-life "conversion" in Nov 04 only to be forcefully "pro-choice" at a press conference in May 05.

In '94 in 2 back-to-back sentences, Romney spoke about the rights of the Boy Scouts of America to determine its own policy, and in the very next breath say that the Boy Scouts should be open to people of any "sexual orientation."

Romney was twice endorsed by the Log Cabin Club of MA only now to have ads run against him by the Log Cabin Club. Romney was in favor of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act before he was 'agin' it.

Romney came alongside Catholic social services to help them keep homosexuals from adopting thru their agency before telling them that "No...can't help you."

Romney was in favor of embryonic stem cell research and then underwent a "conversion." He was in favor of Roe until he was against it.

Now, how may have the evolution of Mormon theology influenced the evolution of Romney's theologically laced social stances?

Example 1: The Book of Mormon was anti-polygamy; but then its original prophet WAS a polygamist (along with many to follow); but then the LDS church cracked down on polygamy; but then polygamy is still supposedly being practiced forever in the celestial kingdom (IOW, "right now"--as much as "eternity" can be "now").

Example 2: LDS leaders said black skin was a "curse" and prevented blacks from the priesthood. Then they changed their mind in 1978.

Example 3: LDS were largely anti-slavery in history. But then you get curious pro-slave owner "Scriptural" passages like Doctrine & Covenants 134:12.

Example 4: Except for the doctrine of grace and some others, just about all of the major distinctions between LDS & the historic Christian faith doesn't even come from the Book of Mormon. What that means is that LDS theology itself "evolved" (one God in BoM; multiple gods later...no priesthood in BoM; priesthood later; no created God in BoM; LDS god a created God later; no 3 degrees of heaven in BoM; 3 degrees later; no baptism for dead or geneology works or temple works in BoM; all of that later...I could on and on)

Example 5: LDS position on abortion. If you read the LDS position on abortion (particularly the one I've seen written for LDS bishops), it initially comes across as "pro-life." But as you read it carefully, you realize that the holes in this cheese makes you ask, "Where's the cheese?"

I mean there's an exception for rape. An exception for generic "health." (And guess who gets to define "health"?--that's right, the abortionist). An exception for if you pray to God about it and then you make God an accessory to murder by saying, "He answered 'Yes'." An exception for life of the mother...

Conclusion: When folks point to Gumby Romney waffling on this or that, I guess I have to ask, "What's the big deal?" (That's what LDS leaders have done from the get-go)

129 posted on 11/14/2007 10:20:07 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: lupie
The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent
130 posted on 11/14/2007 10:22:00 AM PST by TheDon (The DemocRAT party is the party of TREASON! Overthrow the terrorist's congress!)
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To: seoul62

it is not how you look that makes u a cult - it is what u believe.


131 posted on 11/14/2007 10:22:36 AM PST by Mom MD (The scorn of fools is music to the ears of the wise)
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To: nesnah

The Kinderhook Plates thing has been totally disproven. You were duped. You dumped your covenants because of a lie that’s had more holes shot through it than Bonnie and Clyde’s car? See below for just how thoroughly this thing has been debunked.

And I’m a convert to the church who prayed to know whether it is true. My witness is of God. Yours is of your worldy studies, likely to justify not having to live the church’s strict standards. You rely on the arm of man if that’s your wish. I’ll rely on a witness from God.

Now back to the Kinderhook plates, from Wikipedia:

some authors differ on the validity of the statement in the History of the Church, Diane Wirth, writing in Review of Books on the Book of Mormon (4: 210), discredits the DHC account by writing: “Joseph Smith’s supposed statement that the Kinderhook plates were authentic and that they were the ‘records of the descendants of Ham,’ came from the journal of William Clayton, who wrote in the first person, as though from the mouth of Joseph Smith. A first-person narrative was apparently a common practice of this time period when a biographical work was being compiled. Since such words were never penned by the Prophet, they cannot be uncritically accepted as his words or his opinion.”

Latter-day Saint apologist Jeff Lindsay also notes that “The earliest known reference… to the Kinderhook plates as a fraud is in a private letter from W.P. Harris dated April 25, 1855, a letter which was not discovered and made known until 1912. … Another man who claimed to be in on the hoax, W. Fugate, wrote an affidavit in 1879 claiming it was a fraud. Both of these sources are puzzling. If Joseph fell for Fugate’s trap in 1843, why did he wait 36 years to announce it? Why did he wait until after the deaths of the other 8 men he claimed to work with on the Kinderhook hoax? Likewise, if Harris’s 1855 letter is authentic, why did he wait 12 years to write down that he had exposed Joseph Smith? If nine men had achieved their goal and successfully proven in 1843 that Joseph Smith could fall for a clumsy hoax, you can bet that nearly all of them would have been making it known far and wide right away - not years after Joseph had died. It would have been in publications, letters, newspapers, all over the place. But nothing is in the record until many years later. It really doesn’t make any sense” [3].

As a result opinions continue to differ on whether or not Joseph Smith examined and commented on the plates.

The Kinderhook Plates were presumed lost, but for decades The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints published facsimiles of them in its official History of the Church — pointing to them as evidence that ancient Americans wrote on metal plates. The LDS Church acknowledged the plates as a hoax in 1981, and makes no attempt at defending their authenticity. They also make note that there is no proof that Joseph Smith made any attempt to translate the plates. “There is no evidence that the Prophet Joseph Smith ever took up the matter with the Lord, as he did when working with the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham.”[4]


132 posted on 11/14/2007 10:23:14 AM PST by Hillary4Penetentiary ("I hope Hillary is elected" Ala Senakreh, West Bank chief of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades)
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To: Blowtorch

Not as Christians do. I will not upon my death become a god of another “earth”. I will reside in Heaven in the presences of God.

Mormons do not believe they are saved by grace alone either or they would not be required to do good works and use those works in their salvation equation. This comes from Sandra Tanner great grandaughter of Brigham Young. Check out her writings about Mormonism and what is really is.


133 posted on 11/14/2007 10:24:36 AM PST by Resolute Conservative
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To: bpjam
In the event that this whole Mormon debate is solely about Romney (who is not my guy, btw), I’d like to know how his Mormon believes interfered with or helped him with the start up of Staples or the lobbying and managing of the SCL olympics? Did they keep the guy from going the job or show some signs of insanity which were just too obvious to ignore? Or, like more politicians, do things based on polls and pragmatism or the goal of getting elected or completing the task instead? If somebody can point out some substantial way that Romney would be unqualified because he is Mormon or some way that he would govern or lead which is contrary to conservatism based on his faith, then THAT would be of interest to me.

Point 1: Religion IS NOT a qualification for public office; but it's certainly is one quality of voter discernment among many others...namely, voting record, position statements, social issues' stances, character, viability, scandal-free past, etc.

Point 2: If we agreed that a candidate belongs to the most deceptive cult in the world, then certainly that candidate's vulnerability to deception in the most important area of his life--his faith--serves as an indicator that he/she might be more easily deceived in public policy issues. "Vulnerability to deception" belongs on a character checklist!

Point 3: Other-worldly commitments (faith) is a character issue! There's no way around this realization! To try to extract such other-worldly commitments from character is simply not possible. Time & time again folks try to hermetically seal "faith" & "religion" away from the public square as if folks checked their faith at the door or as if folks were neatly cut-up pie pieces. (Just try telling any voter that he should never weigh "character" into his/her voting-decision considerations).

Point 4: (This especially applies to POTUS and may or may not apply to all races): Bill Clinton was a presidential role-model disaster for our young generation re: the scandal. Any president the voting block elevates to the highest role model position in our land accords the highest vote of respectability to the public aspects of what that person stands for. If that person, for example, is a neatly tucked-away communist who's adopted a mask of "family values," & we elect him president, we are telling our kids that communism is OK to emulate. Furthermore, we are handing proselytizing fuel to communists everywhere. It would fuel their door-to-door boldness and other aggressive campaigns to be able to say, "See. Our respectable Communist leader holds the highest office in the land. Come study what helped make the man he is today!"

Point 5: (Not sure if this applies beyond POTUS). The Bible shows that true successful leadership in public office is done by those who fear the the true Lord & who do not worship false gods/idols. The OT is replete w/ such examples. The Israelites had secular kings, not "pastors in chief." But that didn't mean that these kings' ministrations were any less a "ministry." Romans 13 makes it clear that public office is also a "ministry." Those who contend against this are openly militating against this Scripture. It doesn't mean that public officeholders administrate in a parochial way; it just means that public office is a "ministry of service" just like the soup kitchen down the street. History (biblical & otherwise) shows that the more pagan or counterfeit god that a leader holds, the more trouble that leader's "exhaust" settles on the people-at-large. Kings & presidents need all the grace, mercy, & guidance possible, since God gets more credit for preserving & directing leaders than we care to give Him credit for. Therefore, one who worships a false god & has no true relationship w/the living God is stifling access to God's resources; & a nation may suffer for that.

Point 6: Let's say the candidate is not a closet communist but rather an open doctrinaire communist. He comes to me (let's say I'm a successful businessman who has benefitted from capitalism) & says: "You are an apostate from Marx. Every capitalistic creed is an abomination before the sovereign state. Your capitalistic leaders are corrupt. There are only two economic systems: the system of the devil (if he exists), capitalism; and the perfect ideal system, communism. I can expect your vote, then?"

Now ya wanna explain how the above is any different than a doctrinaire Mormon who subscribes to the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History, verses 18-19? (LDS cannot just take or leave its "Scripture," ya know...this verse comes from the very foundation of the church--the First Vision of Joseph Smith). Any true-believing LDS candidate who approaches us historic Christians is saying: "You are an apostate; I am a restorationist built upon the complete ashes of your faith. Your creeds--all of them--are an abomination before God. Your leaders are corrupt. As it says in the Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi, there's only two churches...Ours, the Church of the Lamb; and yours, the Church of the devil. Now, that I've properly inspired you, Mr. Joe Voter, I can expect your vote on Tuesday, then?"

Point 7: Taking this voter alienation into consideration (based upon common polls), & taking the MSM onslaught into consideration in '08, a smart voter MUST consider candidate viability. Come '08, we'll see MSM questions like, "Do you believe you will be a god? Do you believe conservative voters from other churches are 'apostates?' Do believe that although polygamy is no longer practiced on earth, it's being practiced at now & for eternity in another dimension known as the celestial kingdom?"

Point 8: (related to Point 6 & applicable only to POTUS):

If I...

...(a) was a POTUS candidate from a commonly regarded "cultic group"; and

...(b) mislabel 75% of my voting base's primary faith tenets & claims as mere "apostate" status (Note: 75% of people claim to be "Christians" in the more mainline/Protestant/Catholic sense--& frankly, this % is higher in the Republican party)

Then...

Conclusion: I not only show open disdain for my voting base, but betray my ability to inspire confidence in my ability to accurately define a major world religion. If I cannot accurately define a major world religion, what confidence do I inspire re: my ability to handle national security issues, terrorist issues, & negotiation issues pertaining to another world religion like Islam?

134 posted on 11/14/2007 10:25:17 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: Hillary4Penetentiary

Welcome to FreeRepublic. Are you an apologist?


135 posted on 11/14/2007 10:26:39 AM PST by colorcountry ("ever met a gang banger with a hunter safety card?" ~ Ted Nugent)
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To: Hillary4Penetentiary

John 6

66 ¶ From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?


136 posted on 11/14/2007 10:27:00 AM PST by TheDon (The DemocRAT party is the party of TREASON! Overthrow the terrorist's congress!)
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To: seoul62

“Is this a rumour or the offical line: the Catholic Church to which I belong, states that the Mormons are a cult, can someone confirm or deny this?”

If you read this thread from an ex-mormon recovery site:

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon457.htm

You will see the typical despair (even suicidal) that is a classic definition of what a cult is.

I’ve asked repeatedly for someone to post a website devoted to suicidal recovering Lutherans, but no takers yet. (other denominations will also suffice to prove the point).


137 posted on 11/14/2007 10:28:24 AM PST by FastCoyote
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To: Hillary4Penetentiary

Your apologist line is laughable.

Totally disproven by whom? An LDS scholar?

William Clayton spent nearly all his time with JS. It’s funny how some of his writings are perfectly acceptable and fine to the church, but when they stray from the party line, heavens they must be in error.

Dude, if you bothered to dig and read and think, you’d understand. But, because of some ill-timed indigestion (burning on your bosum), you’ve been duped.


138 posted on 11/14/2007 10:28:31 AM PST by nesnah
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To: bpjam
And let me pose a whole different question. What is Romney was Jewish? Does that mean that 40M Christians in the GOP are going to stay home? Or vote for Hillary because she is Methodist? Just asking here since some people seem to be getting kinda sensitive about all this.

An orthodox Jewish believer will call upon the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob during a crisis and daily guidance beyond that.

Faith affiliations are not the only consideration. As you pointed out re: her Methodist ties, Bill Clinton was a Little Rock Southern Baptist at one point. Obviously, Clinton's Southern Baptist ties could be weighed distinctly than, say, Huckabee's Southern Baptist ties.

Positions on social issues, character, etc. are, of course, necessary to consider.

139 posted on 11/14/2007 10:29:04 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: Hillary4Penetentiary

Are you from FARMS by any chance?


140 posted on 11/14/2007 10:29:53 AM PST by Phantom Lord (Fall on to your knees for the Phantom Lord)
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