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To: blue-duncan; Uncle Chip; tabsternager
There is no struggle.

There must be since you are still trying to justify your odd position based on Hebrew vs. Greek, masculine vs. feminine, and since you have no answer the fact that the Septuagint used the feminine Greek to translate the masculine Hebrew. Do you have a thought, or will you just brush it aside? It seemed so important to you at the time.

So now answer the questions: How do you reconcile Matthew 23:39 with 24:30 and 26:64?

That’s a new question which I’m happy to answer.

As I have demonstrated, and as most Bible scholars realize, Jesus’ use of the phrase "coming in clouds" comes from the OT and is a symbolic phrase that can be used to describe God’s coming in temporal judgment against a nation.

The burden against Egypt. Behold, the Lord rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst. (Isaiah 19:1)
We see a similar use in the NT prophecy.
Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. … So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. (Rev. 14:14,16)
Is Revelation 14:14 speaking of the second coming, or something else? Is the "son of man" literally visible to the dweller on the earth in this cloud vision? Does He literally thrust a literal sickle in the literal earth? The context does not seem to support that conclusion.

So we see from the Bible that God often uses the imagery of the "clouds of heaven" for a place of authority and judgment.

So when we get to Matthew 23, 24 and 26, we know Jesus is using a familiar pattern to teach the Jews, and not some new futurist invention. When Jesus confronts the high priest in Matthew 26 and tells him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven," to whom was He speaking? When He said "you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven" was He really speaking about someone else (since the high priest in question would be long dead according to the futurist interpretation)? Jesus was obviously using the exact same language found in Daniel 7:13,14 to describe His ascension to the Father and the coming judgment upon unbelieving Israel that all happened within "this generation" in the first century.

790 posted on 11/12/2007 9:42:04 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism is a disease ... as contagious as polio.")
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To: topcat54; Uncle Chip; tabsternager
‘There must be since you are still trying to justify your odd position based on Hebrew vs. Greek, masculine vs. feminine”

Is it the masculine gender in Hebrew? Now, where does it say in the Old Testament that they will “see the Lord riding on a swift cloud”? God says He does ride, not that they will see Him and they experience the effects of His judgment just as they experience the presence of God in the Pillar of Cloud. They know when the judgment comes that it is from God because He told them. But in Matthew that is not what Jesus said. He said you will see me coming. They did not see him coming in 70 A.D, so what is the point of telling them something they won’t see or recognize?

“Jesus was obviously using the exact same language found in Daniel 7:13,14 to describe His ascension to the Father and the coming judgment upon unbelieving Israel that all happened within “this generation” in the first century.”

So then the “cloud” in Daniel was not an army but the glory of God, His presence. Now, where in the context of Daniel 7 is there mention of the judgment of “unbelieving Israel”? This prophecy is a reference to Psalm 110, ruling over the heathen, not a judgment of Israel. It is the writer of Hebrews “sit on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstools”.

So in Matthew 23:39 he didn’t really mean they wouldn’t see him again until he came in his glory because in Matthew 24 and 26 he said they would see him again in judgment around 70 A.D. but, they would not recognize he was coming in judgment because he was going to come in the guise of the terror of Rome to accomplish this.

Which is more believable, Jesus coming for His bride in the air without telling every one that they will see Him, before He wreaks judgment or His telling Israel they will see Him but they don’t because He comes disguised as Rome and they don’t know He came and they don’t know the temple was destroyed because of their unbelief? Oh, and every thing is getting better, even the cloning of humans.

800 posted on 11/12/2007 10:45:04 AM PST by blue-duncan
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