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To: topcat54; Uncle Chip; tabsternager

“I realize you must still be struggling with the issues I raised in post #734”

There is no struggle. It is a masculine noun derived from the word meaning to cover or conceal. Over 3/4th of the time it is used for the pillar of cloud that led Israel, but it is never used in the preterist sense of a company of men in the Old Testament. It is used mostly as a representation of the awesome presence/glory of God when not as weather or metaphors for the gossamer nature of things. The Jews at the time of Christ would have recognized its use as representating the glory as in Matthew 23:39, “For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”; not some obscure “you will see me in the pagan hordes coming to destroy the temple”.

So now answer the questions:

How do you reconcile Matthew 23:39 with 24:30 and 26:64?

If Israel and the priests in particular did not recognize the destruction of the temple as the judgment of God for their rejection of Messiah how did they “see” him in the pagan hordes and of what value is the punishment to those who did not recognize it as punishment?


780 posted on 11/12/2007 8:56:53 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; topcat54
How do you reconcile Matthew 23:39 with 24:30 and 26:64?

Exactly --

For He said unto them: "Ye shall not see me henceforth till ye shall say: "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord". [Mt 23:39]

Who said that and when did they say it or did they forget to say it there in 70 AD???

786 posted on 11/12/2007 9:21:13 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: blue-duncan; Uncle Chip; tabsternager
There is no struggle.

There must be since you are still trying to justify your odd position based on Hebrew vs. Greek, masculine vs. feminine, and since you have no answer the fact that the Septuagint used the feminine Greek to translate the masculine Hebrew. Do you have a thought, or will you just brush it aside? It seemed so important to you at the time.

So now answer the questions: How do you reconcile Matthew 23:39 with 24:30 and 26:64?

That’s a new question which I’m happy to answer.

As I have demonstrated, and as most Bible scholars realize, Jesus’ use of the phrase "coming in clouds" comes from the OT and is a symbolic phrase that can be used to describe God’s coming in temporal judgment against a nation.

The burden against Egypt. Behold, the Lord rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst. (Isaiah 19:1)
We see a similar use in the NT prophecy.
Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. … So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. (Rev. 14:14,16)
Is Revelation 14:14 speaking of the second coming, or something else? Is the "son of man" literally visible to the dweller on the earth in this cloud vision? Does He literally thrust a literal sickle in the literal earth? The context does not seem to support that conclusion.

So we see from the Bible that God often uses the imagery of the "clouds of heaven" for a place of authority and judgment.

So when we get to Matthew 23, 24 and 26, we know Jesus is using a familiar pattern to teach the Jews, and not some new futurist invention. When Jesus confronts the high priest in Matthew 26 and tells him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven," to whom was He speaking? When He said "you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven" was He really speaking about someone else (since the high priest in question would be long dead according to the futurist interpretation)? Jesus was obviously using the exact same language found in Daniel 7:13,14 to describe His ascension to the Father and the coming judgment upon unbelieving Israel that all happened within "this generation" in the first century.

790 posted on 11/12/2007 9:42:04 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism is a disease ... as contagious as polio.")
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