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Answering the "Replacement Theology" Critics (Part 1)
American Vision ^ | 10/7/2005 | Gary DeMar

Posted on 10/26/2007 9:00:59 PM PDT by topcat54

Replacement theology has become dispensationalism's latest prophetic boogeyman. If you want to end a debate over eschatology, just charge your opponent with holding to replacement theology. What is “replacement theology,” sometimes called “supersessionism,” and why do dispensationalists accuse non-dispensationalists of holding it? Here’s a typical dispensational definition:

Replacement Theology: a theological perspective that teaches that the Jews have been rejected by God and are no longer God’s Chosen People. Those who hold to this view disavow any ethnic future for the Jewish people in connection with the biblical covenants, believing that their spiritual destiny is either to perish or become a part of the new religion that superseded Judaism (whether Christianity or Islam).1

“Replacement theology” is dispensationalism’s trump card in any debate over eschatology because it implies anti-semitism. Hal Lindsey attempted to use this card in his poorly researched and argued The Road to Holocaust.2 He wove an innovative tale implying that anyone who is not a dispensationalist carries the seeds of anti-semitism within his or her prophetic system. This would mean that every Christian prior to 1830 would have been theologically anti-semitic although not personally anti-semtic.

As Peter Leithart and I point out in The Legacy of Hatred Continues,3 it’s dispensationalists who hold to a form of replacement theology since they believe that Israel does not have any prophetic significance this side of the rapture! Prior to the rapture, in terms of dispensational logic, the Church has replaced Israel. This is unquestionably true since God’s prophetic plan for Israel has been postponed until the prophetic time clock starts ticking again at the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week which starts only after the Church is taken to heaven in the so-called rapture. Until then, God is dealing redemptively with the Church. Am I making this up? Consider the following by dispensationalist E. Schuyler English:

An intercalary4 period of history, after Christ’s death and resurrection and the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, has intervened. This is the present age, the Church age. . . . During this time God has not been dealing with Israel nationally, for they have been blinded concerning God’s mercy in Christ. . . . However, God will again deal with Israel as a nation. This will be in Daniel’s seventieth week, a seven-year period yet to come.5

According to English and every other dispensationalist, the Church has replaced Israel until the rapture. The unfulfilled promises made to Israel are not fulfilled until after the Church is taken off the earth. Thomas Ice, one of dispensationalism’s rising stars, admits that the Church replaces Israel this side of the rapture: “We dispensationalists believe that the church has superseded Israel during the current church age, but God has a future time in which He will restore national Israel ‘as the institution for the administration of divine blessings to the world.’”6

Dispensationalists claim that their particular brand of eschatology is the only prophetic system that gives Israel her proper place in redemptive history. This is an odd thing to argue since two-thirds of the Jews will be slaughtered during the post-rapture tribulation, and the world will be nearly destroyed. Charles Ryrie writes in his book The Best is Yet to Come that during this post-rapture period Israel will undergo “the worst bloodbath in Jewish history.”7 The book’s title doesn’t seem to very appropriate considering that during this period of time most of the Jews will die! John Walvoord follows a similar line of argument: “Israel is destined to have a particular time of suffering which will eclipse any thing that it has known in the past. . . . [T]he people of Israel . . . are placing themselves within the vortex of this future whirlwind which will destroy the majority of those living in the land of Palestine.”8 Arnold Fruchtenbaum states that during the Great Tribulation “Israel will suffer tremendous persecution (Matthew 24:15–28; Revelation 12:1–17). As a result of this persecution of the Jewish people, two-thirds are going to be killed.”9

During the time when Israel seems to be at peace with the world, she is really under the domination of the antichrist who will turn on her at the mid-point in the seven-year period. Israel waits more than 2000 years for the promises finally to be fulfilled, and before it happens, two-thirds of them are wiped out. Those who are charged with holding a “replacement theology viewpoint” believe in no inevitable future Jewish bloodbath. In fact, we believe that the Jews will inevitably embrace Jesus as the Messiah this side of the Second Coming. The fulfillment of Zechariah 13:8 is a past event. It may have had its fulfillment in the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Contrary to dispensationalism’s interpretation of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus' disciples warned the Jewish nation for nearly forty years about the impending judgment (Matt. 3:7; 21:42–46; 22:1–14; 24:15–22). Those who believed Jesus’ words of warning were delivered “from the wrath to come” (1 Thess. 1:10). Those who continued to reject Jesus as the promised Messiah, even though they had been warned for a generation (Matt. 24:34), “wrath has come upon them to the utmost” (1 Thess. 2:16; cf. 1 Thess. 5:1–11; 2 Pet. 3:10–13).

Before critics of replacement theology throw stones, they need to take a look at their own prophetic system and see its many lapses in theology and logic.

Read Part Two of this article...


1. Randall Price, Unholy War: America, Israel and Radical Islam (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 2001), 412.

2. Hal Lindsey, The Road to Holocaust (New York: Bantam Books, 1989). The address for Bantam Books is 666 Fifth Avenue, New York, New York.

3. Gary DeMar and Peter J. Leithart, The Legacy of Hatred Continues: A Response to Hal Lindsey’s The Road to Holocaust (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 1989).

4. Inserted into the calendar.

5. E. Schuyler English, A Companion to the New Scofield Reference Bible (New York: Oxford University Press, 1972), 135.

6. Thomas Ice, “The Israel of God,” The Thomas Ice Collection: www.raptureready.com/featured/TheIsraelOfGod.html#_edn3

7. Charles C. Ryrie, The Best is Yet to Come (Chicago, IL: Moody Press, 1981), 86.

8. John F. Walvoord, Israel in Prophecy (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1962), 107, 113. Emphasis added.

9. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, “The Little Apocalypse of Zechariah,” The End Times Controversy: The Second Coming Under Attack, eds. Tim LaHaye and Thomas Ice (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 2003), 262.


Gary DeMar is president of American Vision and the author of more than 20 books. His latest is Myths, Lies, and Half Truths.

Permission to reprint granted by American Vision P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460.


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: arafat; covenants; dispensationalism; eschatology; replacementtheology; wtf
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To: wmfights
I don't see how you get this from that passage. The closest I see any reference that can be interpreted as the Jews is "brethren". However, I think in this case it is more aptly understood as Christians.

Although I am on the same page as some of my brothers in Christ here, I am of that small group who believes in different ways of salvation for the people of different dispensations...

The difference between me and the A and Post Millennialists is that I won't jump up and down and scream at those who disagree with me...:)

As you know, Jesus came to minister to the Jews...

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And Jesus even told his Apostles to stay away from the Gentiles...

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

The Kingom of Heaven...Jesus was ready to take up his position of King of King and Lord of Lords and take up His rightful position of the Throne right there in Jerusalem...

Gentiles were not invited...It would have been a Jewish church in a Jewish Kingdom...

Matthew chapter 5, the Beatitudes are directed at the Jews in the Kindom of Heaven, the physical Kingdom of The King on the Throne in Jerusalem...

Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

And as you read chapter 5, and much of the Gospels, you'll see a large elements of works combined with faith are necessary to gain salvation...

But the Jews rejected their Messiah...

And the Gentile church was born...

But when the Jews (and anyone) during the Tribulation pick up the Bible, they go to Matthew and the other Gospels and Hebrews and James and I and II Peter, etc., to get their directions from God...

I realize most will disagree with me but I'm fine with that...

1,721 posted on 11/23/2007 10:32:31 AM PST by Iscool
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To: wmfights
I was just reading Roms. 11:24 and we are grafted into the tree, but the Jews who in the end are saved are grafted into it as well. I don't think we remain distinct after we are saved.

Don't forget, while the Tribulation is taking place, the Rapture of the church is over...The wedding of the Bride takes place during the Tribulation IN HEAVEN...

You can't become the Bride AFTER the wedding takes place...

As you look at the Gospels, you see the term Friends of God, Guests at the Marriage supper of the Lamb, etc...

Whoever gets saved during the Tribulation will go to heaven but will not be part of the Bride of Christ...

The Bride (the church) will reign with Jesus Christ and Judge the angels and those coming out of the Tribulation and those that get saved during the Millennium...

1,722 posted on 11/23/2007 10:41:24 AM PST by Iscool
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To: wmfights
But they were rebuked for that and told to preach the gospel. IOW, they were wrong. I don't believe they were saved until they believed the gospel.

It's a different Gospel...Compare the Gospel that Jesus taught and the one Jesus told Paul to teach...

1,723 posted on 11/23/2007 10:43:41 AM PST by Iscool
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To: wmfights; topcat54; Lee N. Field; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; Lord_Calvinus; tabsternager; ...
I don't believe God is done with the Jews either

Where does Scripture say God is not done with the Jews as a group instead of as individuals the same as you and me?

Where does Scripture say that the Gospel is not now being preached to every Jew exactly as it is being preached to you and me?

Where does Scripture say it is not incumbent upon every Jew today to fall to their knees in praise of Jesus Christ exactly as it is incumbent upon you and me?

Dispensationalists love to say they do not allegorize the Bible. And yet they seem to ignore the core truth of the Scriptures -- all men are called today to worship Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Nothing is postponed. Nothing is delayed. Christ came, was resurrected and now all the world is commanded to recognize that fact today since no one knows the hour when this life will be over and we will be held accountable for our testimony.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." -- Gal. 3:28

I honestly have no idea how a dispensationalist can read Hebrews and still hold to their "postponed" scenario...

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." -- Hebrews 8:6-13

National Israel means as much to God as national Guam or national Thailand. What matters since Calvary is whether or not a man's heart is circumcised by God.

Paul speaks not of national Israel but of individual Jews, some of whom will come to Christ and others who won't. There's nothing political in his explanation, regardless of how the world's politics play out.

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" -- Romans 11:6-15

Paul is clearly and simply saying heaven rejoices when any man is graced with faith. Certainly with the gentile, but even more with the Jew who didn't just not recognize Christ as Savior, but actually denied He was the Savior.

Each believing Jew is like the lost sheep whom the Father rejoices He has returned to the fold.

"Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent" -- Matthew 27:50-51

Not partially torn, but severed from the top to the bottom. "Believe and be saved." Now.

The Gospel is diminished by the preaching of dispensationalism.

LORDSHIP, NON-LORDSHIP AND DISPENSATIONALISM

"...Let me say at the outset that this dispensational system of theology is diametrically opposed to covenant theology. It opposes all historic Reformed Theology, such as that which is taught in the Westminster Confession, the Old Baptist Confession of 1689, and the Heidelberg Catechism. Dispensationalism would have been declared heresy by the Synod of Dort as was her husband, Arminianism. Arminianism, Dispensationalism and Antinomianism all live in the same theological house (and it is not a Reformed house!).

I say, without fear of contradiction, Dispensationalism is nothing less than a frontal attack on Covenant and Reformed Theology..."


1,724 posted on 11/23/2007 10:55:50 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Iscool
But the Jews rejected their Messiah...

And the Gentile church was born...

God knew. Why God set this up this way I don't know. I'm thankful I'm included.

1,725 posted on 11/23/2007 11:02:24 AM PST by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights
Where does Scripture say God is not done with the Jews as a group instead of as individuals the same as you and me? Where does Scripture say that the Gospel is not now being preached to every Jew exactly as it is being preached to you and me? Where does Scripture say it is not incumbent upon every Jew today to fall to their knees in praise of Jesus Christ exactly as it is incumbent upon you and me?

You misunderstand. It is most definitely encumbent upon every Jew and Gentile to receive the Gospel of the new covenant during this church age. No dispensationalist is or should be arguing otherwise. But this church age of the new covenant will come to an end one day soon, and as it comes to its end, then this is what God says will happen to a remnant of Jews:

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days [of the new covenant that we are in right now], saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." [Hebrews 8:10-12]

This clearly is not the New Testament Church in which every the pastor is called a teacher and virtually every ministry is a teaching ministry. This will be a sovereign work of salvation by God on behalf of the remnant of the House of Israel.

Surely a Calvinist should have no objection to God doing this for whomsoever He chooses. Surely after those days He can have mercy on whomsoever He chooses to have mercy.

1,726 posted on 11/23/2007 1:04:21 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
I say, without fear of contradiction, Dispensationalism is nothing less than a frontal attack on Covenant and Reformed Theology..."

Then "Covenant and Reformed Theology" is built on shifting sands and will fall --

1,727 posted on 11/23/2007 1:08:24 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
It is most definitely encumbent upon every Jew and Gentile to receive the Gospel of the new covenant during this church age day and the next day and forever more.

That's better. 8~)

This will be a sovereign work of salvation by God on behalf of the remnant of the House of Israel.

Perhaps that's where you veer off-center. ALL salvation is by the sovereign work of God alone, Jew and gentile alike.

Surely a Calvinist should have no objection to God doing this for whomsoever He chooses.

God ordained the elect from before the foundation of the world. Christ redeemed the elect on the cross at Calvary. And at a time of God's choosing, the Holy Spirit circumcises the new heart and brings the elect home -- Jew and gentile alike -- "for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

1,728 posted on 11/23/2007 2:03:37 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Uncle Chip; wmfights
Then "Covenant and Reformed Theology" is built on shifting sands and will fall --

Not as long as the Gospel is preached in truth and love.

1,729 posted on 11/23/2007 2:05:47 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Uncle Chip; Dr. Eckleburg; Iscool; fortheDeclaration; Blogger
what God says will happen to a remnant of Jews:

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days [of the new covenant that we are in right now], saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." [Hebrews 8:10-12]

Whether it is during the Tribulation, or the millennial Reign the key is Know the Lord. In knowing the Lord their sins are forgiven. How is this different than us knowing the Lord. We know the Lord.

This may just be one of those times we are going to disagree.

1,730 posted on 11/23/2007 2:47:19 PM PST by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Where does Scripture say God is not done with the Jews as a group instead of as individuals the same as you and me?

Check your bible...Could be someone acccidentally ripped out the 2nd half of Romans 11...

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

1,731 posted on 11/23/2007 4:23:21 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool; topcat54; Lee N. Field; Lord_Calvinus; 1000 silverlings; wmfights; Alex Murphy
'And so all Israel will be saved.'

And so it shall. But since not every Jew will be saved, who is the true Israel? Thankfully, Scripture interprets Scripture, so we further understand that...

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." -- Romans 9:6-8

What could be clearer? "The children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

"For ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

So who is Israel if Israel is not of the flesh? Israel is the true church on earth, made up of the "lively stones" of all believing Jews and gentiles from the beginning of history until the end.

1,732 posted on 11/23/2007 4:59:07 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: wmfights
Whether it is during the Tribulation, or the millennial Reign the key is Know the Lord. In knowing the Lord their sins are forgiven. How is this different than us knowing the Lord. We know the Lord. This may just be one of those times we are going to disagree.

It is the WAY that all of us came to KNOW THE LORD versus the WAY that the House of Israel will come to KNOW THE LORD after those days that is different.

How did you come to know the Lord??? Was it because you heard the Gospel preached??? Was it because you were taught by someone else what the scriptures meant??? Someone told you, right??? And because of that you came to KNOW THE LORD in this church age dispensation. That is the way God ordained it. It is all over the NT -- teaching, teaching, teaching

Buuuut these verses [8:10-12] say that there will come a time when the House of Israel will come to KNOW THE LORD in an entirely different way. No one will teach them anything at all or preach to them or give them gospel tracts or bible tapes to listen to. Instead God will take a direct path, eliminating all teachers and preachers, and write them directly in their hearts.

No tapes, no internet, no websites, no books, no sunday school, no bible cruise seminars, no Wednesday night Bible study. God will write it in their hearts, and they won't have to go to bible college to understand it. And He will forgive their sins without an altar call or a visit to the confessional. And none of them will have to say things like: "you know, you really need to get to know the Lord," because they all will know Him at once without anyone ever having to say that or any of the other things to each other.

1,733 posted on 11/23/2007 5:11:02 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Iscool

Indeed, though virtually the whole of the Replacementarian camp

SEEMS

exceedingly disinterested in Normal UNRUBBERIZED BIBLE TRUTH.


1,734 posted on 11/23/2007 6:47:26 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Iscool
Israel is the true church on earth, made up of the "lively stones" of all believing Jews and gentiles from the beginning of history until the end.

Hmmmmm!!!!!

But Rom 11:25 says this: "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in."

Hmmmmm!!!

So then the Church [Israel] is partially blind?????

Hmmmmmm!!!!

Orrrr -- maybe just part of the Church [Israel] is blind. That must be it. But which part of the Church??????

Hmmmmm!!!!!

Oh that's right -- the part of the Church that believes that the Church is Israel and Israel is the Church!!!! I got it now -- Thanks.

1,735 posted on 11/24/2007 4:54:17 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Israel is the true church on earth, made up of the "lively stones" of all believing Jews and gentiles from the beginning of history until the end.

Nope...We did not become Israel when we became Christians...

What could be clearer?

What could be clearer than Romans 9:6-8??? How about Romans 9:4-5...

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

What could be clearer? "The children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The children of promise...And who are the children of promise??? They are the Jews...Romans 9:4...

1,736 posted on 11/24/2007 6:18:45 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Uncle Chip; wmfights
You misunderstand. It is most definitely encumbent upon every Jew and Gentile to receive the Gospel of the new covenant during this church age. No dispensationalist is or should be arguing otherwise. But this church age of the new covenant will come to an end one day soon, and as it comes to its end, then this is what God says will happen to a remnant of Jews: "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days [of the new covenant that we are in right now], saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." [Hebrews 8:10-12] This clearly is not the New Testament Church in which every the pastor is called a teacher and virtually every ministry is a teaching ministry. This will be a sovereign work of salvation by God on behalf of the remnant of the House of Israel. Surely a Calvinist should have no objection to God doing this for whomsoever He chooses. Surely after those days He can have mercy on whomsoever He chooses to have mercy.

Yes, both the Jew and the Gentile must receive the Gospel today so that they can become saved.

We are not in the new covenant, we are in the New Testament.

That is why in all the new versions, they remove the words 'New Testament' to blur the distinction.(see Heb.9:15-20)

What Heb.8:8-10 is referring to is the Millennial reign of Christ,(New Covenant-8th), where truth will be both known (no Satanic deception, instruction by the Holy Spirit and Resurrected believers), and seen,(Christ on the Davidic Throne) so there will be no need for teaching as there was before.

1,737 posted on 11/24/2007 6:30:33 AM PST by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: wmfights
[This is dealing with those who survived the Tribulation, which the Church doesn't go through.]

During the Tribulation people are being saved by Grace through Faith. I believe these people are correctly called Born Again Christians not Jews. They may be Jews by ethnicity, but not by Faith. Also, Gentiles are being converted during this period as well.

No, because the term Christian is very specific, it refers to the Body of Christ (Eph.1:23) which is then complete in heaven when the Tribulation is going on.

Now, Noah was a saved man by faith yet he was a Gentile.

Abel was a saved man by faith, but was a Gentile.

Lot was a saved man by faith, but a Gentile.

There will be saved Gentiles and there will be saved Jews, who are saved as they were in the Old Testament by faith, but there will be no longer Christians, since they, as Christ's body, will be with Christ in Heaven, going through the Judgement Seat of Christ (1Cor.3:11-15 Rom.14:10, 2Cor.5:10)

1,738 posted on 11/24/2007 6:40:39 AM PST by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: wmfights
[...but the Apostles did not believe that Christ had to die for their sins, they thought that He had come to be the Jewish Messiah and rule a Kingdom (hence the question they asked about ruling in a kingdom (Matthew 20:21).]

But they were rebuked for that and told to preach the gospel. IOW, they were wrong. I don't believe they were saved until they believed the gospel.

They were saved before they believed in the death and resurrection of Christ, since Christ stated they were all clean (except Judas) in Jn.13, and had no need to be cleansed except to have their hands and feet washed (reconcilation).

[ Thus, the content of the Gospel has changed, but not the method (faith by grace). ]

We will probably always disagree about this, unless I can get you to change your mind.

Well, those two disciples who walked with Christ were saved (vs.9) and they were rebuked for not believing in what the prophets stated regarding the Cross and Resurrection. (Lk.24:24-25)

And none of these saved people became Christians until Pentacost, when the Holy Spirit joined them to Christ in one body.

1,739 posted on 11/24/2007 6:49:00 AM PST by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: wmfights
[FTD:That is the essential difference, that the church is not Israel and thus, does not receive those promises made to Israel in the unconditional covenants.]

I was just reading Roms. 11:24 and we are grafted into the tree, but the Jews who in the end are saved are grafted into it as well. I don't think we remain distinct after we are saved.

When the fullness of Gentiles is brought in, then the Body of Christ is removed.

Rom.11:26-29 refer to the New Covenant mentioned in Heb.8:8-10 and Jer.31-33, Ezek 34:23-31).

Both the Church and Israel are from the same Abrahamic root, but both receive different blessings.

The Church is Christ's pure bride (1Cor.11:2 Eph.5:30).

Israel is an adulterous wife, who is reconciled with her Husband, God the Father (Hos.2:14-20)

1,740 posted on 11/24/2007 7:02:11 AM PST by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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