We do not disagree that there are many idols, but that does not mean statues can be idols too .
That does not mean that statues and saints are not idols also
Exd 20:4 ¶
Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
God says bowing down or offering honor to saints or statues that belong only to him is a sin.
I find it amazing that you a lay person argue with a set of church beliefs that have been held for over 2000 years. You haven’t even address the words of Martin Luther about Mary. Even he was devoted to Mary. You seem to ignore this. Before the reformation in 1500s there were no protestants. EVERYONE was Catholic. There were no books and not many could read so everyone went to church to read the Bible
Luther did NOT pray to her. You are confusing using her as a substitute for Christ with honor.
From Luthers Theology of Mary
" While holding this belief, Luther will not have Mary’s perpetually virginity extolled. He condemns those who venerate this attribute, and notes that it exists only to bring forth the Messiah:
Now just take a look at the perverse lauders of the mother of God. If you ask them why they hold so strongly to the virginity of Mary, they truly could not say. These stupid idolators do nothing more than to glorify only the mother of God; they extol her for her virginity and practically make a false deity of her. But Scripture does not praise this virginity at all for the sake of the mother; neither was she saved on account of her virginity. Indeed, cursed be this and every other virginity if it exists for its own sake, and accomplishes nothing better than its own profit and praise.
The Spirit extols this virginity, however, because it was needful for the conceiving and bearing of this blessed fruit. Because of the corruption of our flesh, such blessed fruit could not come, except through a virgin. Thus this tender virginity existed in the service of others to the glory of God, not to its own glory.[Luthers Works 54:340]
Even in Luther’s acceptance of perpetual virginity, it was not to be worshipped as the attribute of a goddess. Luther points out that Mary fades from the biblical account after the birth, because the emphasis of the Scriptures are on her child: “For the prophet and the evangelist, and St. Paul as well, do not treat of this virgin beyond the point where they have from her that fruit for whose sake she is a virgin and everything else. After the child is born they dismiss the mother and speak not about her, what became of her, but only about her offspring.”[ibid] That Luther did not spend entire treatises defending perpetual virginity serves to show that what was important to him was not Mary’s lack of children, but rather the child she did give birth to. Throughout his career, he would minimize the emphasis on this Marian doctrine."
The Catholic Church put together the Bible in the first place. Why would they put together the something that disputes their beliefs. When you read the Bible you can’t just read it in plain English. You have to understand the times, the Kingdom of Juda and the way things were explained.
God entrusted the care of the NT to the church, but it is Gods work not the churches.
The ‘Bible Alone’ wasn’t even until that time of reformations. But guess what? Still no one had their own Bibles. Books were for rich people. A lot couldn’t read. They still had to go to Church to have it interpreted for them.
The Church Fathers believed in Sola Scriptura:
"They[heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith"
- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.1.1
Sola Scriptura !
"I beg of you, my dear brother to live among these books [scripture], to meditate upon them,to know nothing else, to seek nothing else."
- Jerome (Letter 53:10)
Sola Scriptura !
"There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source. For just as a man, if he wishes to be skilled in the wisdom of this world, will find himself unable to get at it in any other way than by mastering the dogmas of philosophers, so all of us who wish to practice piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scripture declare, at these let us look; and whatsoever things they teach, these let us learn; and [u]as the Father wills our belief to be, let us believe[/u][/b]; and as He wills the Son to be glorified, let us glorify Him; and as He wills the Holy Spirit to be bestowed, let us receive Him. Not according to our own will, nor according to our own mind, nor yet as using violently those things which are given by God,but even as He has chosen to teach them by the Holy Scriptures, so let us discern them." [
- Hippolytus, Against Noetus, ch 9
Sola Scriptura !
"For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?"
- Ambrose (On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102)
Sola Scriptura !
"We use Scripture to answer heresy and preceive that it is power and truth."
- Basil the Great
Sola Scriptura !
“Let the inspired Scriptures then[ be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.”
- Gregory of Nyssa (d.ca, 395) “On the Holy Trinity”, NPNF, p. 327
Sola Scriptura
“We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. [What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.”
- Basil the Great (ca.329–379) On the Holy Spirit, 7.16
Sola Scriptura !
“Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.”
- Augustine (354–430) De unitate ecclesiae, 10
Sola Scriptura !
“For our faith rests on the revelation made to the Prophets and Apostles who wrote the canonical books.”
- Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274) Summa Theologiae, Question 1, Art. 8
Sola Scriptura!
"For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture .are to be foundALL matters that concern faith and the manner of life,--to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages."
- Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, 2:9)
Sola Scriptura !
Only the scriptures contain the teaching of the apostles and they speak to us through , and that voice is louder and more perfect than any man made tradition !
‘I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.’ “ (Lk 7:28).
John only had original sin. Only Jesus the people in Heaven, and Mary were greater than he.
PROVE OIT FROM THE WORD OF GOD AND FROM THE CATHOLIC CATECHISM ...I DARE YA :)
That is a teaching of men and has NO scriptural foundation.
You have twisted the word of God to fit your own personal doctrine.
The phrase “born of woman” means born with original sin otherwise Jesus would fall into that category because He has a human Mother.
SIN IS PASSED BY THE FATHER NOT HE MOTHER...DO YOU KNOW ANY THEOLOGY?
AMEN! A great post filled with God’s truth.
Oh, horsefeathers.
His tomb has a prayer to her engraved on it, and he himself said hat praying the "Hail Mary" was a fine thing to do, but not for the weak in faith.
(No, I don't know why he adds "but not for the weak in faith," either.)
He also approved of the title "Queen of Heaven" for Mary.
You guys claim Luther for your side. The real Luther would spew you out of his mouth and come back to Rome in an instant, if he could see what he had wrought.
This, BTW, is complete nonsense, and is found nowhere in Scripture.
Made-up false tradition of men, nothing more.
Who wrote at 612
Nope I do not know what it [that is, Patripassionism] means, ...
Just sayin' .... maybe we can be gentle with one another?
If this proves Augustine adhered to sola scriptura, you have a big problem on your hands.
Augustine also wrote that one who failed to adore the Holy Eucharist was thereby sinning.
He also wrote an extremely fulsome prayer to Mary.
"For our faith rests on the revelation made to the Prophets and Apostles who wrote the canonical books.- - Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologiae, Question 1, Art. 8
Ditto for St. Thomas
So you have a problem. You have to conclude one of the following X things:
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Ne·hush·tan n. [Heb.]
A thing of brass; — the name under which the Israelites worshiped the brazen serpent made by Moses.
Worshiped the brazen serpent, idolatry?
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. [John 21:25; RSV]
Sola Scriptura was started in the 1500s.
You want quotes I can play that game too.
“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.”
1 Corinthians 11:2
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us (Apostles), either by word of mouth (oral) or by letter (Epistle). [2 Thess. 2:15]
...Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. [2 Peter 3:15-16]
First of all you must understand this, that no prophesy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. [2 Peter 1:20-21]
Besides you protestants can’t even agree on the Bible. You protestants have different sects just as the different types of Jews in Biblical times. Different protestant denominations have completely different beliefs from each other. For example over Baptism, some Protestants accept the validity of infant Baptism, while others do not. Some believe in the necessity of Baptism for salvation, citing Mark 16:16, while others disagree by citing John 3:16. They all claim to be Bible-based, but still they disagree over fundamental issues regarding salvation. Plus you are trying to use a Catholic book to decide! You guys can’t even tell which books belong in the Bible because you have no way of knowing unless you admit the Catholic Church put the Bible together which we know is a fact in 397 AD.
The Catholics have had the same beliefs for 2000 years and thats why the Catholic Church will last forever. Everything I believe is because the Church told me so. The Catholic Church has that authority.
What is the pillar and bulwark of truth? The Bible? Nope. The Catholic Church.
..the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. [1 Tim. 3:15]
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. [John 21:25; RSV]
But these things are not for us to know huh?