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To: Mad Dawg

“Actually, don’t we have to say that Adam and Eve were born without sin? So would that make at least three exceptions to Paul’s blanket statement?”

The Bible verses don’t say ‘born into sin’. They say none are without sin, no, not one.

The only exception is Jesus. :*)

Thank you for your enthusiasm about your beliefs! It is obvious you believe very deeply, and I thank you for sharing your joy. :-)


241 posted on 10/25/2007 9:10:12 PM PDT by pillut48 (CJ in TX --Soccer Mom and proud RUSH REPUBLICAN! WIN, FRED, WIN!!!)
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To: pillut48
Good distinction. I have to retreat to my saying that Paul wasn't a theologian

To adumbrate, I'll say this: While the world mocks us for the gloomy doctrine of original sin, I found it to be good news. "Well, no WONDER, I'm such a jerk!" said I.

So that's the gift Paul gave to me. Not only am I a jerk, but so are you. We're jerks and we're surrounded by jerks! That's the best we can do, by ourselves. So we must expect the treatment jerks deserve and jerks give to one another, but in our rare moments of clarity, we can try to be as kind as sinners can be. (For me such moments are very rare.)

So, having the problem of my self-hatred resolved so effectively by Paul's writings\ (that is, the intellectual problem is solved, I am still at war within myself and can only appeal - when I think of it - to the Divine Mercy), I am, I think realizing what Paul meant to convey to his readers. He's not talking about every single human everywhere. He's talking about us. The immaculate conception is irrelevant to what Paul is saying to those fractious churches to whom he is writing.

That's what I mean when I say he's not a theologian. He's not exercising the kind of careful, lawyerly precision of language we expect of theologians. He's saying "Every one of you -- and me too, we're all jerks! And thanks be to God, He knows it and he's done what jerks need!" It's miles away from all the whereases and provided thats of technical language.

Okay. I'm spent. Prayers and then bed. And yes, I will say one of my fave hymns to the Virgin, but the majority will be addressed to the Father.

Your search is gift from God. God will give himself and has given himself as the conclusive gift.

248 posted on 10/25/2007 9:27:57 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: pillut48
The Bible verses don't say "born into sin". They say none are without sin, no, not one. The only exception is Jesus.

You're conflating two verses there. One is St. Paul citing the old testament "none is righteous, no, not one", and another is a passage where he says that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

In neither case does he explicitly exempt Jesus, which tells me that he's speaking hyperbolically, not with mathematical precision.

The point, in context, is (1) Nobody is righteous enough to get to God on his own; and (2) therefore, everyone needs a savior, whom God has provided in Jesus.

Mary is not exempt from either of those two constraints. Her holiness and her salvation are the fruits of grace which her Son won at the Cross. In that sense, she's like everyone else.

257 posted on 10/25/2007 10:15:31 PM PDT by Campion
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