Posted on 10/25/2007 9:24:05 AM PDT by NYer
The most significant quote from the Book of Esther is:
Behind every great woman there is a great man.
That's one reason, imho, that the MARY AS CO-REDEMPTRIX heresy is even now, in our era, winding it's way up to a new "INFALLIBLE" doctrine for the faithful to agree with and support—God forbid.
Yes. God forbid. Our job is to preach the Gospel in truth and love, confident that God will enlighten whom He wills when He wills. I take a lot of comfort in the fact that..."For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." -- 1 Corinthians 11:19
God willing, more and more will have the scales scrapped from their eyes and they will know the perfectly accomplished atonement by Christ risen from the cross.
Little children, keep yourselves from idols." -- 1 John 5:20-21 "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Sometimes I think little children could keep that instruction better than we adults since children are so single-minded. And as regards our salvation, that's exactly how we are to be -- saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone according to the will of God alone and revealed to us by the Holy Spirit alone through Scripture alone.
There isn't anything but emotional dribble in any of this. All truth is declared in scripture and scripture doesn't say to pray to Mary. It says to pray to your Father who is in heaven-not your mother. At the end of the day all we can say is what is in the scripture, not what we feel.
My wife read that and said
Yeah. WAY behind!Then she gave me permission to spend more time on Fr.
The fact is that the OT points to Christ NOT MARY. People knelt before the ark. the ark was a place of mercy. Have you read the teachings on Christ as the ark?
You cut that verse off too quickly. The 2nd half reads:
"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
God won't hold you accountable for the things that Jesus performed that are not written in this book, but He will hold you accountable for the things that are written in this book.
But the suggestion WAS to pray to Jesus, as I said. So the rebuke about praying to Mary, which was what I was responding to, wasn't really apposite.
Now the contention is that, even though faith in Jesus is salvific and nothing else is, asking Jesus to enlighten one's mind about Mary is dangerous. So trust Him, but not too much?
If somebody trusts warm fuzzy feelings and is fool enough to EAT grilled cheese sammiches, much less make them, much less look at them once made, then he probably hath said in his heart "There is no God." (I love grilled cheese, but talk about your basic carbohydrate, salt, and cholesterol trifecta!)
I wouldn't, and haven't told Jesus how to answer my prayers. I tell Him what I want, and what I really, Really want, and then apologize for being so jejune, and ask Him to give me what I need. So I would rear back and remind Him that I am a suspicious and persnickety guy and if He can keep a fleece dry in a dew fall, then I'm probably going to require that he make it wet when all around it is dry before I'll believe anything, but tht's my problem.
"Batter my heart (and not just my heart, but my mind, too) three-person'd God ..."
But, you know, there actually are, on the face of the earth and known to me personally, devout Catholics who are not superstitious, sexually conflicted, emotionally driven simpletons. It seems difficult for some to believe other than that taken all together we cannot muster the intelligence of a pile of rocks, or to credit that we're not as anti-pleasure as Carrie Nation and not as foolish as a new-ager who sprinkled too much acid on his mushrooms.
We believe that God does miracles and we see them all around. We trust Him, and we believe our life is Him teaching us to trust Him more and more.
Thanks for your post.
I remember that Joshua was having trouble fighting Amalek, and as long as Moses prayed, Joshua was winning. That’s when Aaron and Hur came to help Moses by keeping his hands up in prayer. Joshua won.
How much we need each other! I believe that the Lord planned it that way—He sent his disciples out in twos—He asked why they were asleep in the Garden when He needed them to be awake with Him.
I also remember that when Jesus said “one of you will betray Me”, it was St. John who asked “is it me, Lord?”. That’s why we should all look to our own inclinations to betray the Lord in so many small but damaging ways—we should always ask first if it is we who are the betrayers, as St. John did. He didn’t first look at or accuse the others—he was only concerned if it was he himself who had not measured up to Christ’s love and mercy.
Today’s Mass readings were so helpful as I thought of all these things:
* “The one who serves God willingly is heard; his petition reaches the heavens”. “The prayer of the lowly pierces the clouds”
*The Lord redeems the lives of his servants; no one incurs guilt who takes refuge in Him” Ps 34
*From now on tthe crown of righteousness awaits me, which the Lord, the just judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but to all who have longed for his appearance” 2Timothy
*and then bracketing the Gospel of Luke 18:9-14: “Jesus addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else”——”I tell you..whoever exalts himself shall be humbled and the one who humbles himself shall be exalted”.
I have also been reading all these posts and seeing the mention of the Holy Spirit being the one who teaches us. This is true. And I also remember that there are fruits of the Holy Spirit that St. Paul tells us about—fruits that bear witness to the Holy Spirit teaching and guiding us and among those fruits are: charity, joy, patience, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, mildness, meekness ...” and all those fruits that show a benignity of spirit. By these fruits we will be known.
As for your French friends—as a Lay Carmelite I understand fully about Therese—and Catherine is a soul-friend as well.
Regards and respectfully,
ROE
After Mass I went to the celebrant and preacher and told him, "I thank God I am not one of those people who thanks God for not being one of those people."
He thought for a minute, and cracked up.
The sermon was about pride and despair in prayer and it was very good.
I LOVE the Moses AND Joshua and Hur example.
But, if Charlton Heston plays Moses and Ben Hur, who plays Hur?
I’m not at all troubled over being able to explain my post about Esther. I wish I could do it justice but at this moment, I have just run out of time. I have a 24/7 job here at home.
As for a great man being behind every great woman——perhaps my take is basically the same as yours but phrased in reverse—in front of every great woman is a great man. I consider men to be the appointed spiritual leaders. Women have their very own important and irreplacable position in the forming of the Kingdom.
100% would be nicer.
Who plays Hur?
:-)
You have a grerat sense of humor. And it’s the kind that doesn’t take a bite at someone else’s heel.
God’s blessing to you.
Do you thank anyone for being who and what you are?
We do not disagree that there are many idols, but that does not mean statues can be idols too .
That does not mean that statues and saints are not idols also
Exd 20:4 ¶
Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
God says bowing down or offering honor to saints or statues that belong only to him is a sin.
I find it amazing that you a lay person argue with a set of church beliefs that have been held for over 2000 years. You haven’t even address the words of Martin Luther about Mary. Even he was devoted to Mary. You seem to ignore this. Before the reformation in 1500s there were no protestants. EVERYONE was Catholic. There were no books and not many could read so everyone went to church to read the Bible
Luther did NOT pray to her. You are confusing using her as a substitute for Christ with honor.
From Luthers Theology of Mary
" While holding this belief, Luther will not have Mary’s perpetually virginity extolled. He condemns those who venerate this attribute, and notes that it exists only to bring forth the Messiah:
Now just take a look at the perverse lauders of the mother of God. If you ask them why they hold so strongly to the virginity of Mary, they truly could not say. These stupid idolators do nothing more than to glorify only the mother of God; they extol her for her virginity and practically make a false deity of her. But Scripture does not praise this virginity at all for the sake of the mother; neither was she saved on account of her virginity. Indeed, cursed be this and every other virginity if it exists for its own sake, and accomplishes nothing better than its own profit and praise.
The Spirit extols this virginity, however, because it was needful for the conceiving and bearing of this blessed fruit. Because of the corruption of our flesh, such blessed fruit could not come, except through a virgin. Thus this tender virginity existed in the service of others to the glory of God, not to its own glory.[Luthers Works 54:340]
Even in Luther’s acceptance of perpetual virginity, it was not to be worshipped as the attribute of a goddess. Luther points out that Mary fades from the biblical account after the birth, because the emphasis of the Scriptures are on her child: “For the prophet and the evangelist, and St. Paul as well, do not treat of this virgin beyond the point where they have from her that fruit for whose sake she is a virgin and everything else. After the child is born they dismiss the mother and speak not about her, what became of her, but only about her offspring.”[ibid] That Luther did not spend entire treatises defending perpetual virginity serves to show that what was important to him was not Mary’s lack of children, but rather the child she did give birth to. Throughout his career, he would minimize the emphasis on this Marian doctrine."
The Catholic Church put together the Bible in the first place. Why would they put together the something that disputes their beliefs. When you read the Bible you can’t just read it in plain English. You have to understand the times, the Kingdom of Juda and the way things were explained.
God entrusted the care of the NT to the church, but it is Gods work not the churches.
The ‘Bible Alone’ wasn’t even until that time of reformations. But guess what? Still no one had their own Bibles. Books were for rich people. A lot couldn’t read. They still had to go to Church to have it interpreted for them.
The Church Fathers believed in Sola Scriptura:
"They[heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith"
- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.1.1
Sola Scriptura !
"I beg of you, my dear brother to live among these books [scripture], to meditate upon them,to know nothing else, to seek nothing else."
- Jerome (Letter 53:10)
Sola Scriptura !
"There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source. For just as a man, if he wishes to be skilled in the wisdom of this world, will find himself unable to get at it in any other way than by mastering the dogmas of philosophers, so all of us who wish to practice piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scripture declare, at these let us look; and whatsoever things they teach, these let us learn; and [u]as the Father wills our belief to be, let us believe[/u][/b]; and as He wills the Son to be glorified, let us glorify Him; and as He wills the Holy Spirit to be bestowed, let us receive Him. Not according to our own will, nor according to our own mind, nor yet as using violently those things which are given by God,but even as He has chosen to teach them by the Holy Scriptures, so let us discern them." [
- Hippolytus, Against Noetus, ch 9
Sola Scriptura !
"For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?"
- Ambrose (On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102)
Sola Scriptura !
"We use Scripture to answer heresy and preceive that it is power and truth."
- Basil the Great
Sola Scriptura !
“Let the inspired Scriptures then[ be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.”
- Gregory of Nyssa (d.ca, 395) “On the Holy Trinity”, NPNF, p. 327
Sola Scriptura
“We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. [What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.”
- Basil the Great (ca.329–379) On the Holy Spirit, 7.16
Sola Scriptura !
“Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.”
- Augustine (354–430) De unitate ecclesiae, 10
Sola Scriptura !
“For our faith rests on the revelation made to the Prophets and Apostles who wrote the canonical books.”
- Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274) Summa Theologiae, Question 1, Art. 8
Sola Scriptura!
"For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture .are to be foundALL matters that concern faith and the manner of life,--to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages."
- Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, 2:9)
Sola Scriptura !
Only the scriptures contain the teaching of the apostles and they speak to us through , and that voice is louder and more perfect than any man made tradition !
‘I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.’ “ (Lk 7:28).
John only had original sin. Only Jesus the people in Heaven, and Mary were greater than he.
PROVE OIT FROM THE WORD OF GOD AND FROM THE CATHOLIC CATECHISM ...I DARE YA :)
That is a teaching of men and has NO scriptural foundation.
You have twisted the word of God to fit your own personal doctrine.
The phrase “born of woman” means born with original sin otherwise Jesus would fall into that category because He has a human Mother.
SIN IS PASSED BY THE FATHER NOT HE MOTHER...DO YOU KNOW ANY THEOLOGY?
Amen!
AMEN! A great post filled with God’s truth.
Oh, horsefeathers.
His tomb has a prayer to her engraved on it, and he himself said hat praying the "Hail Mary" was a fine thing to do, but not for the weak in faith.
(No, I don't know why he adds "but not for the weak in faith," either.)
He also approved of the title "Queen of Heaven" for Mary.
You guys claim Luther for your side. The real Luther would spew you out of his mouth and come back to Rome in an instant, if he could see what he had wrought.
Your right, maybe Mary was a space alien and jesus was an in vitro conception,
“There were also a great number of other signs which Jesus performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not recorded in this book.”
Seeing the Bible is a work of God, why do you suppose all the things were NOT recorded? Perhaps there are things we are NOT SUPPOSED to know, or maybe scripture contains an overview of ALL the work of Christ.
The Bible contains all we need to know to come to faith in Christ and be saved, it reveals all God wants us to know about Himself
.Esther was one of many wives of the King, it was her beauty and appeal that got the Kings ear.
Is Mary one of many wives of the Father?
This, BTW, is complete nonsense, and is found nowhere in Scripture.
Made-up false tradition of men, nothing more.
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