Posted on 10/01/2007 1:00:06 PM PDT by SmithL
On Sunday - the deadline set by church leaders for the Episcopal Church to roll back support for same-sex unions - the U.S. church's presiding bishop said unequivocally at San Francisco's Grace Cathedral that there would be no retreat.
"All people - including gay and lesbian Christians and non-Christians - are deserving of the fullest regard of the church," the Most Rev. Katherine Jefferts Schori declared during an hourlong discussion before services. "We're not going backward."
Jefferts Schori said these are the views of the church's bishops as well as its lay members - who have increasingly affirmed rights for same-sex couples. As such, Jefferts Schori's comments served as the punctuation to a historic day.
What will happen next is unknown. But a number of U.S. bishops on Friday declared that they are unifying the scores of breakaway churches that view homosexuality as sinful. They are seeking alternative oversight from conservative leaders based abroad.
"A schism of sorts seems inevitable," said the Very Rev. Alan Jones, dean of Grace Cathedral, who moderated the Sunday discussion with Jefferts Schori.
Anglican Communion leaders issued a communique in February for the U.S. Episcopal Church's bishops to state by Sept. 30 that the church would not authorize rites for same-sex unions or approve gay clergy as bishops. Conservatives viewed it as an ultimatum. Some have suggested that the Episcopal Church's price for noncompliance might be lesser status within the 77 million-member Anglican Communion, the body of churches whose roots are in the Church of England.
(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...
ping
In the meantime, many of the Bible-believing segment are seeking orthodox leadership elsewhere in the larger Anglican Communion and may be moving toward a unified movement in opposition to ECUSA.
At this point, it seems that Canterbury will wind up having to choose between the ECUSA and what I'll call ACUSA (the Anglican Communion in the USA).
Can the leadership of a church be simultaneosuly in communion with two members that are not in communion with one another?
This is ecclesiologically fundamental.
Oxymoron ALERT!
In my best Church Lady voice, “Isn’t that special”.
A woman dressed as a man dressed as a bishop. An unholy trinity - three frauds in one.
You guys seem awfully smug in your assertians that you can tell the true christians from the fake ones.
Isn’t it true that if you examined christian practices and beliefs every century for the last 1000s years that it would be different at each one? Stoning OK. Stoning bad. Woman are subservant, woman are equal. Slavery is OK. Slavery is not OK. Black and whites shouldn’t interbreed. Blacks and whites can be married. Divorce is a horrible sin. Divorce should be avoided. Divorce is sometimes necessary. Women must not talk in church. Women can talk but can’t preach. Women can sorta preach. Women can preach on sista! Give away your belongings and follow jesus. Keep your belongings, gain wealth and still follow jesus. Jonah was in a big fish. Story of Jonah is a parable. Crusades a good idea. Crusades a bad idea. Earth is center of universe. Earth not in center. Jews won’t get to heaven. Jews do get to go to heaven.
I mean, come on. Look how different your christian beliefs are from those in the dark ages or even in the 1600s, 1700, 1800s or even early 1900s.
Are you sure that the final and best understanding of your bible rests with you and your generation and not those past generations and not this new generation of theologeons? Seems a bit arrogant.
Or, in 100 years, are they going to look at the comments on this post with sadness and say that you guys weren’t ‘true christians’.
I hope you don’t see my reply as persecution. It’s just a challange or criticism and open for logical discussion.
These “experts” ar no theologians at all, but merely RATIONALIZERS!!!!
The feminazi “bishop” Jefferts-Schori, for example, is a theological lightweight, and even most liberal theologians would agree with me.
But even qualified theologians of the revisionist persuasion in Anglican and Lutheran circles have sunk more and more into merely rationalizing the “gay”/feminazi program rather than doing theology. And in the latest issue of the ELCA’s “The Lutheran”, there is an article that says that theology is an “idol” and that “unity” despite theological diferences is what is most important.
Ping
Scripture is unchanging. So is heresy. The heresies of the mainline denominations of today are the same as the heresies of hundreds of years ago.
Neither has the confession to which I subscribed changed in any essential way.
I checked your posting history. Looks like you are probably a troll. I’ll wait and see.
You have to smash together a wide range of Christian groups--some of which were complete wackos--to make your argument work. That's like saying "your American beliefs" and including Rush Limbaugh and George Soros. No wonder it looks contradictory.
I'll let my Protestant friends answer as to their side on this, but here's the update on what Catholic Christianity has taught for the last 2000 years. Stoning was Judaism not Christianity. Women are subservient only to an extent but are always considered ontological equals. Blacks and whites not interbreeding was never ever taught by the Church. Divorce is (still) forbidden. Women can't be priests. Some people are called to give their belongings away, but all are called to be detached from them. Jonah was in the big fish, it wasn't a parable. Crusades were a good idea then, and still a good idea now. Science taught the earth was the center of the universe, the Church never did. And Jews can get to heaven same as everyone else--through the Church.
I am quite historically certain that we believe the same thing now as we believed in 33 A.D. Or I wouldn't be a Christian.
And to your very good question on how are we sure that the final and best understanding rests with us and not those of past generations?
Easy.
We don't. That's why we believe in Church Fathers and Ecumenical Councils. :)
To be clear about the context, though, Paul makes it quite clear that homosexuality is just one among many sins:
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. (Rom. 1:28-32)
We're all in the same boat:
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? (Rom. 2:1-3)
I'm on record as being really against what TEC is doing with regard to homosexuals and its general brushing aside of sin.
At the same time, though, I recognize myself in that list ... and so I figure it's best to be careful about how I judge other people -- especially when it comes to us deciding whether or not they're Christians.
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Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15
Word dances, such as you engaged in, will not change the condemnation of homosexuality, not homosexuals. We are all sinners, and we are all given the opportunity to repent (GRK: metanoia - to change one's mind) of our rebellion against God and His revealed Word.
This is the key phrase. If we engage in the same behavior we condemn, we will not escape God's judgment. But, that does not preclude judgment. How would we ever be able to correct those in sin; how would we ever admonish those in sin? We are not told to avoid judging, we are told to avoid hypocrisy.
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