Mormon ousted as an apostate

East Valley Tribune—Phoenix, AZ, MSNBC ^ | Sept 23, 2007 | Lawn Griffiths

[colorcountry]

Being excommunicated for apostasy by the Mormon church is one thing, but Lyndon Lamborn is livid that his stake president has ordered bishops in eight Mesa wards to take the rare step of announcing disciplinary action against him to church members today. "I thought if he could go public, so can I," said Lamborn, a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who said his research into church history gave him "thousands of reasons the church can't be what it claims to be."

Stake President R. James Molina acknowledged Friday he intends to have Lamborn's excommunication announced to the wards at men's priesthood meetings and womens Relief Society gatherings, even with Lamborn now taking his case public. Molina, as well as officials at church headquarters in Salt Lake City, call such a public warning about an ousted member extremely rare. They say, however, church members must be protected from what discordant ex-followers may say to damage the church...................

[Elsie]

Modern prophets and general authorities will sometimes cite newspaper articles or books to illustrate the points which they wish to make.

Or even C.S.Lewis!

[DelphiUser]

I Said: If insted you postulate that Satan is somehow able to respond to a prayer to God, which CS Lewis in his book "THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS" says is impossible, and for which there is no scriptural support for such a position, or no prayer's answer is sure.

You Said: 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

9. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
10. and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
11. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

Your Quotation says nothing about Satan answering a prayer to God. Luke 9-11#9

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give athe Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

If God cannot communicate with his own children in such a way that they cannot know of a surety that it is he that communicates with them, then that God is not the all powerful being that is the God of Abraham, and of Issac, and of Jacob. Satan will indeed try to counterfeit God, but if Satan is allowed to answer in God's stead then he is more powerful than God, and God forbid that such a thing could be.

From Post #619:

I said: MHG, go with God, come unto him who will yet reveal to you the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon if you will just ask him in faith an with sincerity in your heart.

You Said: Likewise...

DU, go with God, come unto HIM who will yet reveal to you the adequateness of the Bible for revealing Salvation's plan.

First, MHGinTN has accused me of having multiple handles here, if you are going to respond to posts to him, please make it clear that you are not MHGinTN when responding. (Just so you don't get accused of being him...)

Second, I have spent much time on my knees seeking the word of God concerning the truthfulness of his Scriptures, and the same spirit that testifies to me that Jesus is the Christ, also testifies to me of the truthfulness of the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Do not seek to place yourself between me and God, for he has and continually does answer me.

And before you tell me I have been deceived, consider John 4:1-6

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Elsie, I have a testimony direct From God, what use are your words?

I am inviting all to pray, as does John, I would think you would be right with me on this. Let me Explain the logic here, and to do so I will build a logic tree. For this tree, we will assume three points that I think all Christians will agree upon.

1. God will always answer those who ask him in faith, nothing wavering.
2. We will further assume that the Bible is the Word of God.
3. Lastly, we will assume that God will testify of his words.

Either the Book of Mormon is true or not.

Branch One: Book of Mormon is not true.

1. People praying about the Book of Mormon will not receive an answer.
2. The answer they do receive will not testify of Jesus having com In the flesh as the Son of God (John 4:2)
3. They will receive an answer that the Book of Mormon is not true.

Branch Two: Book of Mormon is true.

1. People Praying about the Book of Mormon will receive an answer, and They will know the Book Of Mormon is true, they will know there are modern day prophets, they will know Joseph Smith was such a prophet, and they will investigate further.

Logically, there is only one reason Mormons would be encouraging people to read the Book of Mormon and pray about it, it is if we honestly believe it is true, and that people will receive an answer from God, there is only one way we would believe that which is that we have received such an answer ourselves.

Similarly, those who believe the Book of Mormon to be untrue should also be encouraging people who are curious to read it and pray about it, they should be helping people to recognize the signs of an unanswered prayer, a negative answer to a prayer, thus helping people to discern the spirits according to the Bible.

Logically, there is only one reason for anti Mormons to try to keep people from reading the book of Mormon, they know, or fear that those people will indeed receive a witness, and thus increase the number of people who know the church to be true.

I have known many anti Mormons, most of those I have known left the church for other than Doctrinal reasons (even when that is what they say now) somewhere they still know the church to be true. Those who have this knowledge of the truthfulness of the church, but have left it are in denial, and they want others to "Agree" with them so they can continue their denial uninterrupted, these people can't simply walk away, they come back to pick at their scabs and make scars of what, in an enlightened, intellectual separation should be a clean severing of the relationship.

This analysis is based on people I know of personally, and like most experiential knowledge will not apply to all who read this, to some it will apply I expect them to want to complain loudly about this post. As my dad used to say, "If you throw a rock at a pack of dogs, the one that makes the most noise is the one that got hit.

Elsie, I do not know if you ever were a member, and I am not trying to say that you were, or were not. I do not know if this is your situation, so don't get bent out of shape, OK?

Logic dictates that if you believe God will answer, and that we can know if the answer is from God that both sides should be asking people to read the Book of Mormon and pray about it.

If I have missed a logical reason for asking people not to read the Book of Mormon and not to pray about it, please let me know. Remember, I am asking for logical reasons, not emotional ones, and saying it is a "Waste of time is to me, not a good answer.

Lastly, I ask the question, if I am wrong, and people put my religion to the test, and I am found to be a "False witness of God" That is my problem, but, what if we are right, can you take that chance?

Get a Free Book of Mormon

Get a Free Bible

Test us, try the spirits see if the same spirit that testifies of the Bible will not also testify of the Book of Mormon, Know for your self that it is from God.

[DelphiUser]

Modern prophets and general authorities will sometimes cite newspaper articles or books to illustrate the points which they wish to make.

Or even C.S.Lewis!

I am far from qualified to be called a prophet, but thanks for the compliment.

[DelphiUser]

You are LUCKY!

I get to do the plumbing and the drywall myself!

Luck has nothing to do with it... I am slow, Grin.

[MHGinTN]

Isn’t it interesting to see what ‘double-minded’ can mean?... The BofM has entire portions from Isaiah, etc. carried over into the novel. Those portions are true scriptures but the novel in which they are found is not, yet many adherents of Mormonism cannot see the trap Satan set with some truth in the novel accompanied by pure fabrications of a culture that did not live on this continent. If I handed to you a stack of monopoly money with one or two actual U.S. currency included therein, would the entire stack be counterfeit? And that is the way the Mormonism request is framed regarding the fabricated BofM.

[Old Mountain man]

Peace be unto you. As the Prophet laid out Saturday and Sunday, ours is not the Church of Nicean Creeds. Ours is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The Nicean creed is an abomination and distortion of the Bible’s plain and straightforward messages. There is no telling what was left by the wayside when the committee of the emperor Constantine put it together. Therefore, I don’t really have much use for Roman or Greek philosophy as I consider them inferior to the plain and clean doctrines of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[DelphiUser]

Isn’t it interesting to see what ‘double-minded’ can mean?... The BofM has entire portions from Isaiah, etc. carried over into the novel. Those portions are true scriptures but the novel in which they are found is not, yet many adherents of Mormonism cannot see the trap Satan set with some truth in the novel accompanied by pure fabrications of a culture that did not live on this continent. If I handed to you a stack of monopoly money with one or two actual U.S. currency included therein, would the entire stack be counterfeit? And that is the way the Mormonism request is framed regarding the fabricated BofM.

Is there anything that is impossible for the Lord? I'm quite sure that God can tell someone the Bible is "True", and the Book of Mormon is "False" if it contains only partial truth. If he wants to, he can testify of each individual word.

Your postulate here seems to be that God can only say it's not his if I do not use any of his words (Maybe letters too), otherwise he is stuck having to testify of the whole if it even though it's "Mostly false". This is a situation that's just not so.

Although you have come up with a unique way to tell people not to pray about truth. Tell me, is the Bible inerrant? If so, which version? What about people who pray about another version, will they be told it's true? Who decides when a Bible has enough truth in it, you? Why?

I have at times given the example of the Brownies, here I go again.

I bake you a batch of delicious brownies using your favorite recipe, but I add a cup of Dog poop, mix well, and bake at 350 degrees? The Chocolate will certainly cover the flavor, and baking in the oven will insure that no bacteria survives, they look beautiful, want one?

If not how about half a cup?, table spoon?

How much dog poop is too much dog pop in your brownie?

I personally have a low tolerance for crap which is why I do not like for those not of my church to try to explain my churches beliefs, the Dog poop quotient is just too high for me.

God will not testify of anything that does not meet his standards, he is not in a bind. So stop all this nonsense, and pray about it, oh, want a brownie? What if I told you there really was no dog poop in them? Maybe you should pray about it.

Besides, it's always good to pray over your food, you never know where it's been.

Grin.

I hope you both have a good day, hey what's for dinner, can I bring the brownies over for desert?

[MHGinTN]

Have you ever prayed, asking if the Book of Mormon is true? I have, more than two decades ago, because my closest friend wanted me to. I was sincere, but the only answer I got immediately was to suddenly, coincidentally, meet a Bible teacher. I told him I was reading the Book of Mormon and had prayed to know if the thing was true scripture from God. His only response was a smile and a 'good luck, I'll pray for you to get your answer.' That's all. His name was Paul Wert, a pilot for a firm in B'ham AL.

That very night when I opened the B of M to read, a sense of doing something I should not be doing came over me ... a lump in the throat type of guilt feeling! With that, I closed the book and put it on the shelf. Two or three weeks later, I had occasion to talk with Paul more directly concerning the Book of Mormon, when I joined his in-home Bible study. When I told him about the sense of guilt at reading the B of M, asking for a sign, he explain the wrongness of seeking after a sign where it concerns a likely conflict with what God has already told us ... 'never ask of God doubting that He has already provided', was Paul's admonition as best I can recall it. He then told me the specifics of what he prayed for me. I'm going to be using that prayer tonight, to pray for Christopher Hitchens.

I have kept that lesson in my heart as a reminder to not try and tempt God for signs and wonders. I still have Paul's copy of Fawn Brodie's No Man Knows My History, first edition, which he had leant to me a few weeks later during the Bible study at his home. He was killed in a plane crash and when I went to return it to his widow, Peggy told me to keep it, that Paul would want me to have it for reference in future Bible studies I would teach ... a word of prophecy, I believe, because at the time I was not teaching anyone anything about the Bible since I was such a new Christian myself.

It is interesting that Mormons will tell someone to 'pray and ask God if the Book of Mormon ...' (since there are passages from the Bible, the thing isn't wholly false, is it!), yet if you tell them you got a negative answer --not just no answer, a negative answer-- they will make some excuse and then tell you about their witness when they asked. Thankfully, some have come out from under the spell of Mormonism. Sadly, some have come out and gone into atheism or agnosticism.

[DelphiUser]

Have you ever prayed, asking if the Book of Mormon is true? I have, more than two decades ago, because my closest friend wanted me to.

Are you still close?

I was sincere, but the only answer I got immediately was to suddenly, coincidentally, meet a Bible teacher. I told him I was reading the Book of Mormon and had prayed to know if the thing was true scripture from God. His only response was a smile and a 'good luck, I'll pray for you to get your answer.' That's all. His name was Paul Wert, a pilot for a firm in B'ham AL. That very night when I opened the B of M to read, a sense of doing something I should not be doing came over me ... a lump in the throat type of guilt feeling!

So, do you actually think the "Guilt" was from God, or because you met someone who was a bible teacher, and he had made you feel guilty?

With that, I closed the book and put it on the shelf.

If that was all it took to convince me the BOM was true, you would laugh me to scorn, but OK.

Two or three weeks later, I had occasion to talk with Paul more directly concerning the Book of Mormon, when I joined his in-home Bible study. When I told him about the sense of guilt at reading the B of M, asking for a sign, he explain the wrongness of seeking after a sign where it concerns a likely conflict with what God has already told us ...

You apparently did not understand what you were supposed to be doing, you should not have been seeking a sign, Signs are vastly deferent than spiritual confirmation. Now I see the problem, but I don't expect you to accept that, you will say I am making an excuse, even though I'm not.

'never ask of God doubting that He has already provided', was Paul's admonition as best I can recall it. He then told me the specifics of what he prayed for me. I'm going to be using that prayer tonight, to pray for Christopher Hitchens.

It's never a matter of "Doubting what he has provided", God provided you with a Book of Mormon, and a Friend to ask you to read it. it's a matter of trying the Spirits as we have been commanded to do. Doubt is not any part of the process of asking God for a witness of truth, as a matter of fact doubt is specifically not allowed as part of asking for Wisdom.

Please understand that I am not trying to impugn your attempt, but your very words here contradict what the scriptures say you need to do to get an answer, so I am not surprised that you did not get one. I wonder why you did not talk to your closest friend, If he is the one who asked you to read the BOM. You should have talked to him about it.

I have kept that lesson in my heart as a reminder to not try and tempt God for signs and wonders. I still have Paul's copy of Fawn Brodie's No Man Knows My History, first edition, which he had leant to me a few weeks later during the Bible study at his home.

So you kept going to talk to "Paul", but did not communicate with your closest friend. Paul tells you you had been seeking a sign and you believe him over the request of your closest friend. This sounds a bit strange to me, you were willing to to call me a liar with less to go on, but I will just ask, what did your closest friend say when you told him what had happened?

He was killed in a plane crash and when I went to return it to his widow, Peggy told me to keep it, that Paul would want me to have it for reference in future Bible studies I would teach ... a word of prophecy, I believe, because at the time I was not teaching anyone anything about the Bible since I was such a new Christian myself. It is interesting that Mormons will tell someone to 'pray and ask God if the Book of Mormon ...' (since there are passages from the Bible, the thing isn't wholly false, is it!), yet if you tell them you got a negative answer --not just no answer, a negative answer-- they will make some excuse and then tell you about their witness when they asked. Thankfully, some have come out from under the spell of Mormonism. Sadly, some have come out and gone into atheism or agnosticism.

Could I tell you my experiences? yes.
Could I explain why you didn't get a witness, yes, I could.
Instead, I will state that your story just does not add up for me, the "Closest Friend" who drops like a stone from your narrative, the Stranger with a Bible study group and first editions of a book written in 1963 who lends it to you and then dies mysteriously. Life is seldom like a mystery novel my FRiend.

As for Fawn Brodie's work, Anyone interested should read, the over view of the book, followed by this article No, Ma'am, That's Not History by Hugh Nibley.

While MHG and many non Mormons think Mrs Brodies work is exemplary when she attacks Joseph Smith, but when she writes another book in the same vein called "Thomas Jefferson an intimate history" In this book, which I will term a "fiction" An adulterous Thomas Jefferson, supposedly sleeping with his Wife's half sister who was the result of a dalliance with a slave by Thomas jefferson's father in law with a slave, thus, Sally Hemmings was a slave, and was owned by Thomas Jefferson, so he was in effect sleeping with his illegitimate step sister in law, who was also his slave.

These scurrilous accusations were never born out by anything bordering on certainty, indeed the genetic testing performed on Sally Hemmings' descendants only served to prove that five of Sally Hemmings' children could not possibly have been fathered by Thomas Jefferson, the remaining sixth could have been, he could also have been fathered by anyone from 10% of the population including Thomas Jefferson's close relatives living in the area. Scholars of the presidential history of Thomas Jefferson, were unimpressed with these accusations and saw them as a scurrilous attack on Jefferson.

This is the caliber of work written by Miss Brodie about Joseph smith and Thomas Jefferson.

These books, when leveled at Mormons are lauded, but when she writes a similar book about other historical figures are almost universally panned by critics.

Reader, draw your own conclusions, and pray for yourself to find out the truth, don't take my word, nor MHG's. one of The beauties of the message of the new testament is that Jesus is inviting everyone to ask, knock, seek, and he bars no man from an honest inquiry after truth. In Luke 11:9-13, it says:

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

God is asking you to ask him, be not afraid to ask him, luke continues with another example...

Luke 11: 14-19

14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.
15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.
16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.
17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.

Judge the church by it's fruits, try the spirit of the Book of Mormon by comparing it to the Book of Mormon, do not be as the others who will seek any excuse not to believe.

I promise you readers that if you will Put our Religion to the test you will not be disappointed.

This I testify in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

[Elsie]

God will always answer those who ask him in faith, nothing wavering.

First, you'll have to convince me that EVERYONE of an LDS organization members 'prayer to GOD' get's answered.

If you can't, then your whole 'logic' falls apart.

[Elsie]

Ours is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Which has a list of things they believe; The Articles of Faith.

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html

It appears to me that they are a creed.

A creed is a statement or confession of belief — usually religious belief — or faith. The word derives from the Latin credo for I believe. It is sometimes called symbol (Greek, συμβολον), signifying a "token" by which persons of like beliefs might recognize each other. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creed

---

http://lds.about.com/library/bl/primary/aa13_articles_of_faith.htm

[Elsie]

...they will make some excuse and then tell you about their witness when they asked.

The old standby: "You never REALLY asked 'in faith'."

[Elsie]

(Contrary to what the Anti's will tell you, we do indeed read the Bible, it's part of the church cannon, but that does not fit their template for us.)

If you REALLY press them, LDS organization members will tell you they have a BETTER version of the Bible; too!

It's called the Joseph Smith Translation and it has a lot more goodies in it that have been 'restored'. Stuff that bad men had removed from the plain and simple truth.

[Old Mountain man]

They hate that one. I guess you are supposed to have faith in the Bible parts that they say are right without understanding it. How can you gain spiritual understanding without the Spirit of God?

[DelphiUser]

I Said: God will always answer those who ask him in faith, nothing wavering.

You Said: First, you'll have to convince me that EVERYONE of an LDS organization members 'prayer to GOD' get's answered.

If you can't, then your whole 'logic' falls apart.

I don't think that not being able to convince you equals my logic falling apart.

As a former District Leader in the Taiwan Taichung Mission, I know we were not supposed to pass someone for baptism they had received a witness (We ask them), The candidate for Baptism should bear their testimony to us, we should feel the spirit.

We were also instructed to not pass anyone for whom the spirit did not witness that they were ready.

There are over 13 million members of the church, have some of these members probably just on statistics alone have not received a spiritual witness, I have not said that every Mormon has asked in faith. Some never do, relying on Mom and Dad's testimonies until they get out on their own, then they often struggle.

If my inability to convince you means you don't agree with me, fine, however, I will not concede that I am completely wrong because of your unbelief, that would be like saying the fact that there are atheists means God does not exist, it's just a fallacious statement to make.

BTW, I was wrong once before, so I know how to handle it /joking (about being wrong...)

[DelphiUser]

I Said: (Contrary to what the Anti's will tell you, we do indeed read the Bible, it's part of the church cannon, but that does not fit their template for us.)
<
You Said: If you REALLY press them, LDS organization members will tell you they have a BETTER version of the Bible; too!

It's called the Joseph Smith Translation and it has a lot more goodies in it that have been 'restored'. Stuff that bad men had removed from the plain and simple truth.

You might not want to Go there with MHG, is the one quoting "Young's Literal translation of the Greek" as the version we should all be using...

[MHGinTN]

They also like to fabricate attributions: '... MHG, is the one quoting "Young's Literal translation of the Greek" as the version we should all be using...' I merely post the Young's translation (I have posted that I prefer this translation in most passages) and the poster fabricates or twists and attributes to me an insistence that 'we should all be using' this particular translation. This method of deception is so indemic I doubt they even realize they do this false attribution/purposed twisting thingy so often.

[MHGinTN]

indemic should be endemic

[Elsie]

How can you gain spiritual understanding without the Spirit of God?

Indeed!

[Elsie]

You might not want to Go there with MHG, is the one quoting "Young's Literal translation of the Greek" as the version we should all be using...

He IS??

From what I've observed, it's merely 'another testimony of Jesus'.