Mormon ousted as an apostate

East Valley Tribune—Phoenix, AZ, MSNBC ^ | Sept 23, 2007 | Lawn Griffiths

[colorcountry]

Being excommunicated for apostasy by the Mormon church is one thing, but Lyndon Lamborn is livid that his stake president has ordered bishops in eight Mesa wards to take the rare step of announcing disciplinary action against him to church members today. "I thought if he could go public, so can I," said Lamborn, a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who said his research into church history gave him "thousands of reasons the church can't be what it claims to be."

Stake President R. James Molina acknowledged Friday he intends to have Lamborn's excommunication announced to the wards at men's priesthood meetings and womens Relief Society gatherings, even with Lamborn now taking his case public. Molina, as well as officials at church headquarters in Salt Lake City, call such a public warning about an ousted member extremely rare. They say, however, church members must be protected from what discordant ex-followers may say to damage the church...................

[Elsie]

UUUuummmm...

Doh nuts....

[Elsie]

You and your crummy ‘translation’ again!!!

You KNOW that we barely accept the KJV, so just WHY do you think that any OTHER ‘translation’ (spit) would mean ANYTHING to us?

—MormonDude(Using my VASTLY superior JST!!)

[1000 silverlings]

You are casting pearls before swine little one. The god of Mormonism, just like their other Jesus and their other gospel, is not the God who has revealed Himself to mankind through His written word that Christians are happy to call the bible. You are talking apples, they are speaking oranges and never the twain shall meet.

[greyfoxx39]

You are casting pearls before swine little one. The god of Mormonism, just like their other Jesus and their other gospel, is not the God who has revealed Himself to mankind through His written word that Christians are happy to call the bible. You are talking apples, they are speaking oranges and never the twain shall meet.

BUH...BUH....BUT....they CLAIM they are fruit of the SAME CHRISTIAN TREE!!! How can THAT be?

[VxH]

[Neat quote, too bad it's not real]

Here's another page claiming the same thing.  Whoever created it went though a lot of trouble.   They've even got images they claim are photos of the original LDS publication.   If it's not true, why hasn't the LDS gone legal and forced them to remove the disinformation - like the Scientologists do?

 

http://www.challengemin.org/moon.html

In an 1892 LDS publication under the heading "THE INHABITANTS OF THE MOON," this interesting information is given by Oliver B. Huntington:

"Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a Prophet.

"As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do -- that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years.

"He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.

"In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes." (The Young Woman's Journal, published by the Young Ladies' Mutual Improvement Associations of Zion, 1892, vol. 3, pp. 263-64)

Below is a photograph from the LDS publication, The Young Woman's Journal, p. 263. Notice that O.B. Huntington stated he knew Joseph Smith said the moon was inhabited.

 

 

 

[MHGinTN]

The Apologists work on that river in Egypt don’tchaknow.

[MHGinTN]

This one at your link to be even more damning of this scam artist, Smith:

THE 1826 COURT TRIAL

For years Mormon scholars have criticized the account of an 1826 court trial held in Brainbridge, New York where Joseph Smith was arrested, tried, and found guilty of using a magical stone for the purpose of finding hidden treasure buried in the earth. This account was published in Frazer's Magazine in 1873. The following information is quoted from that publication under the heading "STATE OF NEW YORK v. JOSEPH SMITH":

"Prisoner [Joseph Smith] brought before Court March 20, 1826. Prisoner examined: says that he .... had a certain stone which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance under ground .... he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for three years, but of !ate had pretty much given it up on account of its injuring his health, especially his eyes making them sore;...

"And therefore the Court find[s] the Defendant guilty. Costs: Warrant, 19c. Complaint upon oath, 25½c. Seven witnesses, 87½ c. Recognisances, 25c. Mittimus, 19c. Recognisances of witnesses, 75c. Suboena, 18c -$2.68." (Frazer's Magazine, February, 1873, pp. 229-30)

Until 1971 LDS scholars believed that there was no proof to prove the account given in Frazer's Magazine. They were so sure of the innocence of Joseph Smith that some Mormon apologists admitted if the court record could be found it would prove Joseph Smith a fraud. Dr. Francis W. Kirkham stated:

"If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, and especially had he made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it would have been impossible for him to have organized the restored Church." (A New Witness For Christ In America, vol. 1, pp. 385-87)

Then in 1971 in the basement of the County Jail in Norwich, New York, Wesley Walters discovered the original 1826 Court record which gives the costs involved in the trial and proves the account given in Frazer's Magazine. Not only is this one of the most devastating pieces of evidence against the divine mission of Joseph Smith, but this discovery proves Smith was heavily involved in the occult during the time he was supposed to be preparing himself for receiving the "gold plates"!

Below is a photograph of the newly discovered document which proves that Joseph Smith was arrested, tried, and found guilty as a "glass looker" in 1826. To the left is a typed transcript of the portion of the document that deals with Joseph Smith. Notice that when the letter "S" was repeated it appears as a "P" (see the word "Assault" in items 1, 4, 7, and 9).

[Elsie]

If it's not true, why hasn't the LDS gone legal and forced them to remove the disinformation - like the Scientologists do?

Go LEGAL??

Why SHOULD we?

Just LOOK at all the LIES told about us by folks who HATED us in those Missouri COURTrooms back in the 1800's!

--MormonDude('The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers')

[Elsie]

Then in 1971 in the basement of the County Jail in Norwich, New York, Wesley Walters discovered the original 1826 Court record which gives the costs involved in the trial and proves the account given in Frazer's Magazine. Not only is this one of the most devastating pieces of evidence against the divine mission of Joseph Smith, but this discovery proves Smith was heavily involved in the occult during the time he was supposed to be preparing himself for receiving the "gold plates"!

Lies... LIES!!!!

They HATED US back then!!

This is quite POSSIBLY an old forgery from that era. You know, like them slippery Salamander things!

People will go to ANY lengths to slander and abuse our dear founder (PBUH).

--MormonDude(Saddened by fakery)

[Old Mountain man]

Why is it you believe garbage like this but don’t believe the scriptures before your very eyes?

[DelphiUser]

Just for reference, here are the cited scripture verses from Young's Literal translation of the Greek showing why it is an insult to the Highest Priestly nature of Our Lord to presume He needs or would delegate Mormon prophets to lead the people in this New Testament Age:

Let me try to explain why we Morons keep acting like you have come to a gun fight with a wooden knife.

You keep saying Jesus will teach us everything, you keep saying he will direct us you keep saying that he will answer our prayers directly. Then in the next breath you deny an answer to prayer.

I don't care if your translation is by Young, Bob, George, or yourself, they are men, not prophets. Your very premise here is that the very idea of a modern day prophet is offensive to Jesus Christ. I can prove that wrong by a simple method that is far mor accurate than any translation made by a man, I've asked Him, and I have received an answer. Look, I'm quite sure that Young's translation is top drawer, really first rate stuff. I honestly believe that whoever did it had the very best of intentions, and probably certificates and degres of very prestigious institutions, as things performed by man are measured it's probably a work of art. When compared with a simple revelation form God, it is worthless. Your postulate here as backed up by this work is that God does not call prophets today. We have been commanded in the Bible to knock, ask and even to pray, I have a section on putting our religion to the test on my page here at FR. It's a copy of something I posted here. We Mormons can prove the futility of your quotations with a simple excercise of Reading the Bible, and the Book of Mormon, praying about both, and asking God if they are both true. Now if you tell people not to do this experiment of faith, you are in opposition to the command of God, for he said " Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.". This scripture is written in the present tense, there were already false prophets in the apostles' day. We are commanded in this scripture to try, test and discern between the spirits to see which is of God. I have many times called upon people who were attacking my church on this forum to pray about what they are doing to see if it is truly what God really wants them to do. The mental gemnastics are always interesting to watch as they try to rationalize away an invitation to pray.

It will never offend God for any man to ask his will in any thing.

I to commend you for your dedication and zeal in reading the scriptures, but I ask, when will you start believeing what they say?

Do not be offended by my words, for I am often dissappointed by my ability to voice my thoughts as well as i would like, so please bear with me.

One of the problems many Christians have is an inability to believe Christ. Oh, they know he is the son of God, They know the Gospel as taught by their church, but while they believe IN christ, they do not BELIEVE Christ. They will have committed some sin, maybe petty, mabey severe, it really does not matter, and even though they have gone through sometimes outrageous efforts to make amends and had gone through the repenatce process and cast their burdens on the Lord, yet they find no relief.

The reason many of these people can find no relief is that they fail to believe Jesus Christ when he tells them that he will rememeber their sin no more. They refuse to forgive themselves. Because they cannot see how the atonement works, they fail to believe it. They Believe in Jesus Christ, but they do not believe him when he says they will be forgiven.

MHG, I would say that you are a very leared man, you have spent much time studying, if memory serves, you have degrees, and certificates in large number. Yet, while you believe in christ, your words here tell everyone you do not believe what he is telling you. Pray, it's simple, if God tells people the Book of Mormon is not of God, then we are commiting suicide as a religion by asking people to do this. If you are sure that God will testify of the Bible, but not the Book of Mormon, you should be right there beside me encouraging people who are curious to read both an pray. for then they will no longer be curious.

If you preach aganst praying about anything to know it is true (the Book of Mormon for example), then you don ot believe Christ when he tells you to pray in the Bible. It's that simple.

If insted you postulate that Satan is somehow able to respond to a prayer to God, which CS Lewis in his book "THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS" says is impossible, and for which there is no scriptural support for such a position, or no prayer's answer is sure.

Again, let me iterate, The God of Abraham, and of issac and of Jacob has and will always answer prayers, Mormons only ask that people pray. Once someone has prayed about the Book fo Momron, and recieved an answer, arguments about the interpetaion of scriptures that you are taking to mean there can be no more prophets, are moot.

MHG, Pray about what you are doing, please.

[DelphiUser]

All those FReepers with a brain will see that this is the lowest form of a smear anyway.
Ok then...

MHG, if I had said the things about you that you have said about me, you would be furious, I freely forgive you and ask you to stop and begin again to keep the rules of the forum you are posting on.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim, In this paragraph, I have been called a deceiver...
HMm... I wonder why??

I think, it is because you cannot compete on a level playing field, so you break rules, you call upon others to try to shut me up with volume posts, or banning, it does not reflect well upon you to call anyone else a liar, especially when you are saying I am lying about my own beliefs, something which only I and God can reasonably be construed to know.

MHG, go with God, come unto him who will yet reveal to you the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon if you will just ask him in faith an with sincerity in your heart.

In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

[DelphiUser]

I’d have it finished before Christmas ...
Didja say which YEAR??

(That's why I'm still alive!)

My wife has good taste in everything but men, she is also smart, she asked which year. When the plumber gets through moving a the water heater, the water softener, and putting in a drain, we will be ready for "four way" Yesterday, I fixed the ducting and electrical for the downstairs furnace, ducted in two new rooms, moved all the rooms downstairs to the Breaker box that I had installed their by an electrician, two weeks ago. I still have some "Boxing" to complete, a dryer duct to put in, and some insulation to replace, and wiring for the theater system, I have my work cut out for me, since I am trying not to be the reason the Dry-wallers are put off, so forgive any delays in posting.

[MHGinTN]

Pax vobiscum is Latin for 'peace be with you'. Thank you for offering this opportunity to tell what is the Hope that IS within me, by the blood of Jesus Christ. As I am under the impression that you are a Mormon I will acknowledge from the start that we differ on interpretation of what the Scriptures (the Bible) teach regarding Salvation. I do not believe that you receive salvation after all that you can do. I do study the scriptures so the following is offered with agape and based upon years of study. Hope it is edifying for you and other readers ... I'm pinging Jim Robinson to this post since he cannot possibly read every single post at FR and there are some he does find interesting that he might miss if not pinged to them. Don‘t get paranoid like some and think pinging Jim is the same as asking for his intervention.<p>

In John's Gospel account of Jesus and the coming of the Christ --to be 'God With us' and then God in us following the Resurrection and Church Day of Pentecost,-- in that Gospel we are given the scene of one Nicodemus, member of the Jewish Sanhedrin in that day, coming to Jesus at night to ask Him for something to show He was Messiah. They get into an exchange during which Jesus tells Nicodemus that a man must be born again, born of the Spirit, in order to enter into Heaven. Throughout the letters of Paul --and especially in the letter to the Romans-- Paul addresses this notion of being born again, born of the Spirit, for Salvation in Christ. And he, Paul, explains it using the verb tenses and cases in the Greek which indicate an immediate deliverance followed by an ongoing transformational process called ‘salvation’. The Blood of Christ cleansed the Mercy Seat in Heaven and thereby those who died before the Cross were made righteous because of their belief (‘faithe‘) in God’s Promises. The Blood of Christ cleanses your heart allowing God’s Spirit to come into your inner self, your spirit, and dwell there to transform your soul as you ‘faithe’ in the promises of God to transform you, thereby ‘establishing’ the Law of God (fulfilling the Law) in your heart, as Paul put it.

When one reads these passages in the Greek, there are certain specific aspects of the Greek words which give insight into the specifics of the written passages. Here's a simplified example from Romans chapter ten:<p>

Romans 10:8-10 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (KJV)

Romans 10:8-10 10:8 But what doth it say? `Nigh thee is the saying -- in thy mouth, and in thy heart:` that is, the saying of the faith, that we preach; that if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved, for with the heart doth believe to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation; (Young’s Literal Translation)

The underlined words --faith, believe, and believeth-- all derive from the Greek word ‘pisteuo’. In the Greek the verbs give rise to the nouns, so ‘pisteuo’ --to faithe-- gives rise to ‘pistis’, the noun --faith. Important to the understanding of the use of ‘pistis’ is that it is at its heart an action word which, in the way written in the passage, is an ongoing action, an immediate application with continuous force, an unending application --not continuous if referred back to, but a thing instituted by God not man, then remaining in effect WHILE the ‘faither’ lives the remainder of life ‘faithing’. Faith is action based upon belief sustained by the confidence that what God promises He will do. That is why we read repeatedly that Abraham ‘believed’ God and it was counted for him righteousness. … The words in blue --confess and confession (’homologeo‘)-- are derived from ‘homos’ which is Greek for ‘at the same place or time’; adding ‘logeo‘ we have ‘at the same time or place spoken‘. … The word in red --salvation (soteria=deliverance)-- is derived from the Greek word ‘soter’, meaning ‘a deliverer’.

You wrote that ’Salvation is a thing that is worked out on one’s knees in prayer and in repentence.’ Salvation --deliverance-- is something you receive immediately when you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead. Then you lead the rest of your life, daily, as you function in every aspect of living, ‘faithing’ in the promises of God that He will transform your soul by the renewing of your mind. You receive deliverance in your spirit and remain delivered in your soul (you behavior mechanism) --are transformed-- through a daily walk (which should include time on your knees and/or in quiet solitude with His Spirit sifting and cleansing your soul) in which you ‘faithe’ in His Spirit within which you received the minute you were delivered. You received a deliverer (soter) in your dead human spirit when you confessed Jesus Christ. You are ‘sotered’ daily, to coin a word mixing Greek and English, in your behavior mechanism, you soul.

Pax vobiscum

[DelphiUser]

OK, I wondered if you would actually go to the Joseph Smith link about men on the moon. I have researched this one, but never heard of the one on Brigham young, are you sure the original quote was from Brigham young?

FairWiki talks about how all these stories about Moon men came into being, Here.

The topic of inhabitants on the moon was a common one in the Day and age of Joseph smith's and Brigham young's time, the following paragraph (Taken from the link above) is relevant.

Modern prophets and general authorities will sometimes cite newspaper articles or books to illustrate the points which they wish to make. In doing so, they are not endorsing such articles or books as being prophetically correct in all particulars. Rather, they are using the science and information of their day to enhance their preaching of the gospel.

LDS doctrine was not provincial, since it provided for "worlds without number" (Mos. 1:33) created by Christ. These worlds held those who would require the gospel, since by Christ "the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God." (D&C 76:24)

Information given to the 19th century Saints by the authorities of the day were consistent with these doctrines, and so they believed them, and occasionally mentioned them in a religious context. As always, prophets and believers are products of their time. Biblical authors, for example, clearly accepted a geocentric (earth centered) cosmos, with a flat earth and heavens supported by four pillars. Like the authors of the Bible, modern prophets are generally beholden to their era's scientific concepts, except where corrections in those concepts are needed to permit the gospel to be understood and applied. This does not mean, however, that prophets of any era do not receive revelation about matters of eternal significance.

Are you also going to condemn the Catholics for supporting a "Geocentric" earth? They did, to the point it became difficult to accept any other focus. While I am sure that Both Joseph Smith, and Brigham young discussed the topics of the day, I am equally sure that they never said "Thus sayeth the lord, there are men on the moon.".

Anti's continually attempt to say the bar for a prophet is that he must be perfect. Tell that to Jonah, Moses, and Elisha all of whom made mistakes that would invalidate them as prophets if the standards you would hold Joseph to were applied to them.

I am now going to say something that will probably shock you.

Joseph smith was a brash impulsive, impatient man who was also impetuous and sometimes even proud. He was also called of God to open this dispensation and restore the church of Jesus Christ to the earth. I do not know why God chose him, only that he did so, and I will not second guess the Lord God. He has testified to me that Joseph is indeed a prophet, and that as they say Closes the books on that one.

As for the JOD page, This is the first I have heard of it, and cannot find it in any scholarly site, the only reference you have found are anti-Mormon sites which forgive me have all the credibility of CBS and Dan Ra^ther when it comes to documents, are you sure it's not one of Mark Hoffman's forgeries (many of which are still floating around in Anti-Mormon circles.)

Have you got any links from anywhere which shows the actual origin of the page, and is not replete with such forgeries as the kinderhook plates and other blatant anti Mormon stuff?

I assert that since there are many instances of Anti-Mormons forging things to try to discredit the church, anything that can only be found on an "anti" site and has no historical background on where, when and how it came into their possession only, will be viewed by anyone in this debate with extreme pessimism.

I am not saying it's a hoax, I'm saying you have not proven it is truly a valid document yet, the same answer I would give Dan Ra^ther. My standards for things that support the church is just as high.

[DelphiUser]

Going to spend time with the Fam now....

[VxH]

[I am not saying it’s a hoax, I’m saying you have not proven it is truly a valid document yet,]

Fair enough.

[Elsie]

If insted you postulate that Satan is somehow able to respond to a prayer to God, which CS Lewis in his book "THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS" says is impossible, and for which there is no scriptural support for such a position, or no prayer's answer is sure.

---

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
9. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
10. and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
11. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

[Elsie]

MHG, go with God, come unto him who will yet reveal to you the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon if you will just ask him in faith an with sincerity in your heart.

Likewise...

DU, go with God, come unto HIM who will yet reveal to you the adequateness of the Bible for revealing Salvation's plan.

[Elsie]

You are LUCKY!

I get to do the plumbing and the drywall myself!