Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part VI: The Biblical Reality

Cor ad cor loquitur ^ | 16 November 2004 | Al Kresta/Dave Armstrong

[DungeonMaster]

The verse shows Jesus smacking down the beginnings of Marianism. It was desired to exalt Mary for bringing Him and He showed that simply being any old Christian is more blessed than the part that Mary had in His incarnation.

[annalex]

:)

[annalex]

This is your spin. It does not agree with the scripture, because Jesus did not stop the woman from venerating His mother, -- He taught us how to properly venerate her.

27 ... a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck.

Here Mary is venerated for her physiological motherhood.

28 But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.

Here the woman is corrected: Venerate her, and all who hear and keep the Word.

Does He mean every Christian? No, because the commandment to keep the Word is a difficult calling, "why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46).

[swmobuffalo]

“that’s the other view”

LOL It’s the only view based on Scripture. There’s no where in the New Testament that Jesus proclaims the CATHOLIC CHURCH the one and only. You can twist anything to make it fit but when it comes down to it, that proclamation isn’t there.

[annalex]

I was ordained 30 years ago too, but I quit to become RC

One of these days you've got to post your own story.

[Mad Dawg]

And you guys say WE are far-flung in our interpretations of Scripture?

So When Mary says, "Behold, from now on (Dawg translation of "apo tou nun") all generations will call me blessed," Jesus would have added, "But, MOM, they'll be wrong!"

I think one of the great things about IHS's teaching is that he often turns things away from the "out there" to the "in here". So the end of the whole Good Samaritan story is," Go and do THOU likewise," and when somebody asks Him about the commandments He says,"What do YOU think?"

So I would go this far with you, that if somebody praises Mary and does not address his own relationship with Jesus and with God, that's perverse. And when somebody praises Mary in the anecdote, He doesn't let him off the hook, but challenges him to deal with his own relationship with God. "Enough about my mother, where are YOU when it comes to obedience?" That's the Jesus I love and admire. What a great teacher!

So it's not so much that "simply being any old Christian (and WHY do we have to bring up my age?)is MORE blessed ...." IMHO It's that "my" blessedness is my business, and comparing it to anyone else's is silly.

But when I rejoice in God's grace to Mary (or to you, for that matter) it's not ducking my relationship with God or handing it over.

But if he says blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it, who has done so more than Mary? (And I would construe Μενουν ... as "No, you dope, HERE's the way to think about blessedness!")

I think people often duck the encounter with God. And yes, one could use devotion to Mary as a way to do that. One could use ANY devotion -- especially when accompanied by a sense that one's prayers are going to get one into heaven -- as a way to avoid that heart-to-heart in which one's own painfully deep neediness, moral and every other kind, meets the penetrating eye of God. To that extent, let all devotions be cast aside if they are "performed" with that attitude.

"Lilies that fester...," as I am fond of saying ...

[annalex]

There’s no where in the New Testament that Jesus proclaims the CATHOLIC CHURCH the one and only.

Because there was no other church till Luther came up with his theological fantasies.

[Mad Dawg]

LOL It’s the only view based on Scripture.

Ah, artillery duel rather than conversation. Your disagreement is noted and the notion that the only reason people disagree with you is that they twist things is also noted. Thank you for sharing.

I would have said that for those who read the Bible the way you read it, your view follows. But not everybody who reads Scripture reads it as you do, and not everyone who differs from you does so by twisting.

I personally find in Scripture good grounds for trusting the Catholic Church.

[annalex]

Good post, as usual, but I would take issue with

I would construe Μενουν ... as "No, you dope, HERE's the way to think about blessedness!"

There is no "No". The usual translation is "Yes, rather" both in King James and Douay.

[Mad Dawg]

One of these days you've got to post your own story.

I am WAY too young to die, at least by a thousand Free Republic cuts.

Briefly, I found that the Episcopal Church, while having all the trappings and behaviors of a body which truly believed that it was a valid Church and that God spoke to it through the members thereof, actually believed nothing at all. Conventions were run NOT to discern the will of God, but to enact an agenda. Canons and other legal entities were created with no expectation that they would be followed. A bishop (Spong) who was member of the "house of Bishops" which passed a moratorium on the ordination of practicing homosexuals could ignore the resolution and be acquitted in a trial. But the priests who presented charges because of The Bishop's acting against his own house's resolution would be penalized for 'behavior unbecoming'.

That's only one of I'd guess a dozen examples. The House of Bishops declares that the "Philadelphia 11", the first women to be "ordained" (irregularly) were NOT validly ordained, but then later decides to allow them to function as priests anyway.

It was all "pretend"!

So I asked myself, "How does one lose the faculty of will?" And the answer was,"By abusing it."

If one looks at the chaos and doctrinal confusion in the Pepsicola Church from the death of Henry VII on one sees an immediate decay of will.

SO I concluded, reluctantly at the time, the the decay of will began with choosing to separate the Church from communion with the Holy See.

Q.E.D.

The only thing good a sinner can do with his will is offer it to God, and even that offer is more of an "Indian gift" (no offense meant to anyone) than a real offer. One is finally reduced to pleading,"Lord, take my will before I snatch it back, and keep it secure from my sinfulness, PLEASE!"

At my pre-ordination retreat, an Anglican nun advised me to offer my will and "my" ministry to God every day.

I dare to conclude that finally He honored my offer.

And now, most of the time, I smell far worse than weeds. But everyday that I am NOT acting like a priest, I am making an offer of obedience. I really wanted to be a priest. All the stuff I do, with sheep and Law Enforcement and such, is just marking time.

Now I am vulnerable. But I AM armed. Choose carefully ;-)

[Mad Dawg]

Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich has "on the contrary". Kittel doesn't have it.

You don't like the Mad Dawg translation? I was thinking it was kind of an intensive of μεν which has a sense of "on the one hand". B,A,&G also offer μενουνγε which I take to be kind of a double intensive.

SO you got your "ho men .... ho de ..." kind of lingo as in. "Ho men Dubya is Republican, ho de he's kind of lousy on the border issue." On the one hand this on the other hand that.

So that's where I got the sense of "You are looking at it all wrong, the way to look at blessedness is ...."

But, yeah, reasonable folk could differ.

Thanks for nice words. I appreciate it.

[annalex]

Yes, the disintegration of the Anglican communion is painful to even watch. I can imagine the pain of living it. Thank you for sharing.

[jo kus]

the Catholic Church proclaims it is the only one who has the truth!

I just got done saying that the Church possesses the fullness of the truth AND that other communities possess portions of the truth. Where do you get the idea that the Catholic Church is the only one that possesses truth? We do not deny that Protestants possess some truth, nor do we deny that Islam possesses some truth.

Regards

[DragoonEnNoir]

(Mad Dawg wrote) in contemplation of Scripture

Yet contemplation or meditation in a Christian context is not the emptying of ourselves or the reliance upon 'our' wisdom... rather it is the listening to the Spirit of God which is His gift of guidance to all who call on His name.

But when he, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. (Jn 16:13-14)

I understand your comments on the origins of Marianism, yet there are several severe flaws with it. Firstly and most critically, it ignores what Christ himself says about his mother and his family in other scripture. As an example, when told that Mary and his brother were without (we're not going to even get into Immaculate Conception and the siblings of Christ here!), He replies,
Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?". Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." (Mt 12:48b-50)

Please note that this is not to devalue Mary or James as people blessed and chosen by God, but to affirm that all honor and glory belong to God.

When looking and contemplating scripture, we should look and consider it in it's totality, and not as isolated parts.

The second problem (there are more imo, but let's try to be slightly more brief) is that it assumes human wisdom in the things of God. We are told both that the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom (1Cor 1:25), and if I recall correctly, there is also a passage which equates human wisdom with the thinking of Satan.

Your comments on witchcraft are interesting, but think also on why God so detests witchcraft. As I read (especially in the OT) on witchcraft, God does not say it is not real, rather He commands that we place no Gods before Him, and honor no Gods except Him. The essence of witchcraft is to try to control (or to give the illusion of control... after all, Satan is the prince of lies) your surroundings, to place your trust and faith in a God other than God. In one sense, reliance on birth control can be seen as that, yet it is not the thing itself that is evil, but the warped usage of it which is.

My 'physical' comment was for any readers with a Gnostic bent. There are always those who attempt to remove God from any physical act, and who see spirit and flesh as entirely in opposition to each other. Yet, in it's proper place (in a union before and in God, of a man and a woman into one), love in all it's aspects, including physical love, is a truly beautiful thing.

On both the ABC and my 'new law' comment, I'd like to post this passage of scripture;
Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. (Col 2:21-23)

Like the OT Law, any rigid law does not restrain us... rather it makes us aware of how we fall short and sin.

The essence of Christ is that we are no longer under law, but under grace. All things are permitted of us, yet not everything is beneficial, and we are to judge all things by the Spirit which has been given us as a guide (along with scripture, which is the Word of God). We are to judge our actions not in light of rigid rules which can be bent, misunderstood or misapplied, but rather by the greatest commandments.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Mt 22:37-40).

As Paul continues in Collosians,
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. (Col 3:1-3)

Sorry if this is a bit disjointed... writing late at night, and now it's time to rest.

May our Lord be glorified in all we do.

[swmobuffalo]

“I would have said that for those who read the Bible the way you read it, your view follows. But not everybody who reads Scripture reads it as you do, and not everyone who differs from you does so by twisting.”

Apparently some read literally and some read something else.

[MEGoody]

God didn't make Jesus' flesh in Mary's womb; He got Mary's flesh.

Then one would think that Jesus would have been female rather than male.

[wmfights]

Quite happy as a Missouri Synod Lutheran.

God Bless you. Trust in the LORD.

It really takes great strength to overcome the conditioning that starts from before you can walk.

[ArrogantBustard]

Pepsicola Church from the death of Henry VII

I'm quite sure you didn't intend to "diss" Henry VII, who was apparently a decent King. I'm sure you meant Henry VIII ... who was, IMO, a pig. With apologies to pigs.

[annalex]

Mothers cannot have sons?

[annalex]

As a Catholic I read the scripture literally.

Baptism now saves you
The sins you forgive are forgiven the sins you retain are retained
This is my body
What you bind on earth I will bind in heaven
There be no schisms among you
How can they preach unless they are sent?

Christ did not start scores (being charitable with the count) of denominations, scripture tells us. He started one hierarchical authoritarian sacramental Church.