Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part VI: The Biblical Reality

Cor ad cor loquitur ^ | 16 November 2004 | Al Kresta/Dave Armstrong

[DungeonMaster]

Honour thy father and mother (multiple)

And you believe that this is saying that I am to venerate my parents?

[Origin: 1615–25; < L venerātus, ptp. of venerārī to solicit the goodwill of (a god), worship, revere, v. deriv. of vener-, s. of venus, presumably in its original sense “desire”; see Venus)]

[DungeonMaster]

honor: high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: to be held in honor.

Do you see no difference between the words honor and venerate?

[annalex]

bologna

This is what the Church teaches, like it or not. The poster thought that we have a contradictory doctrine about the salvific nature of the Holy Eucharist; we do not.

Do you see no difference between the words honor and venerate?

Yes, I do. While we merely honor our parents, we venerate Mary as well as honor her. "All generations will call me blessed".

[MEGoody]

If someone ignorant of genetics reads the Gospel, he would conclude that Jesus's flesh is all from Mary.

Yes.

[armydoc]

Excepting the Orthodox, who have valid Eucharist also, the others are saved through the boundless mercy of Christ, provided they desire to commune with the Catholic Church and repent of their sins. There is no ordinary means of salvation for them though, past baptism.

A very convoluted way of admitting you don't take literally "Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you"

[armydoc]

She was, but her birth was a natural event, of both parents, who were likewise good holy people and saints of the Catholic Church. Her cleansing from the original sin came from Christ, of course.

At some point in Mary's lineage, there had to be "good fruit" from an "evil tree", no?

[DungeonMaster]

Yes, I do. While we merely honor our parents, we venerate Mary as well as honor her. "All generations will call me blessed".

Then why did you even bring this verse below up as a reason for veneration. Again, where are some examples in the bible of who and how venerate since we have eliminated honor as they are two different words.

Honour thy father and mother (multiple)

[annalex]

Since we also have the example of the Good Thief, who did not take the Eucharist, we understand that in John 6 Jesus is talking of ordinary means of salvation, but extraordinary means exist also. It also follows logically from His sovereignty. This is literal reading of the entire New Testament; it is not an unthinking robotic reading.

[annalex]

No. Why?

[annalex]

In Luke 8 and 11 Jesus gives us reasons to venerate anyone: for their listening to Him and keeping His commandments.

Honoring is a necessary component of veneration.

[perseid 67]

The article is interesting.

My reasons for returning are different from his reasons. I have noticed that people who are not moving up in the world tend cycle downwards in the protestant denominations until they land in sects like the Jehovah's Witnesses or some other weird religion. Usually the poor people want protection from their oppressors ,but most churches try to protect the reputation of their members. So those who do not fit in with the image the protestant church is trying to cast of itself face pressure to leave or become more conservative in an effort to fit in. It’s sad to see poor people driven to such extremes when a wealthy person need just walk in with a fat wallet and he or she will be instantly accepted.

I’m sure this man loves the rational scientific minds of the Jesuits. I must admit they tend to excite fear and envy in their protestant counterparts. I on the other hand think the babushcaked old ladies are underrated. Those women are connected to God in a primitive and mysterious way. They remind me of the Tibetan mystics who meditate on the Dharma for years. Maybe they seem superstitious because it is hard to explain the spiritual aspects of Christianity. The fact that the Catholic church tolerates and even encourages them speaks well of Catholicism.

I also disagree with the notion that the Catholic church is not populist. No other church as far I can see has opened itself to so much attack by defending the right of less than perfect people to be on this Earth. The Catholic church is spear heading the movement to protect the disabled from those who want to spare them the misery of life without regard for whether they are miserable or happy.

[perseid 67]

babushcaked=babushkad

[DungeonMaster]

Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:27f)

So you are saying that this says to venerate Mary or to venerate everyone that hears and keeps the Word of God? The text indicates that the latter is greater but you must be saying that anyone that is "blessed" is to be venerated. Is that the case?

[annalex]

You may be unfair to Kresta. I agree with your post, however:

- Catholic pieties, for example, Marian devotions, are nothing to apologize about. While individual Catholics may fall into superstition over that (less and less so, under the drumbeat of our critics), a far greater proportion fall to theological falsehoods such as Calvinism because they don't embrace Catholic mysticism enough. Sola Scriptura is a false superstition than any medieval peasant fearing an evil eye.

- Rejection of clubby donatism and the clear vision of the Church as hospital for sinners is fundamentally Catholic.

I think that what Kresta means in that paragraph is not that folk pieties are bad but that they need to be compared with (so-called) speaking in tongues and snake handling that goes on in Protestant denominations; and that the popes never act like politicians who would say anything to get elected.

[annalex]

So you are saying that this says to venerate Mary or to venerate everyone that hears and keeps the Word of God? The text indicates that the latter is greater.

It doesn't say that veneration of saints is greater than veneration of Mary. It says that Mary should be venerated but also that the saints should be venerated for similar reasons.

[DungeonMaster]

It doesn't say that veneration of saints is greater than veneration of Mary. It says that Mary should be venerated but also that the saints should be venerated for similar reasons.

How is that there unless she is ascribed with hearing and keeping and even then it says blessed but it says nothing about honoring or venerating either.

[armydoc]

No. Why?

Because, for that not to be the case, every female in Mary's lineage would have to have been a "good tree". Is that your assertion?

[armydoc]

Since we also have the example of the Good Thief, who did not take the Eucharist, we understand that in John 6 Jesus is talking of ordinary means of salvation, but extraordinary means exist also. It also follows logically from His sovereignty. This is literal reading of the entire New Testament; it is not an unthinking robotic reading.

Interesting that Catholics seize on "this is My Body"; no context of scripture required, don't you believe His words, He meant what He said, etc. etc. Context only becomes useful for explaining away inconvenient words that were just as plainly stated.

BTW, The Good Thief is a great example, isn't he? No baptism. No good works. No Eucharist. Just repentance and faith. The real "ordinary means" of salvation.

[annalex]

Mary hears the word of God as she responds “Be in onto me” in Luke 1, and she keeps both the commandments and, physically, the incarnate Word as His mother.

The behavior of the woman sho cries out to Mary in Luke 11 can only be described as veneration.

[annalex]

Yes, and I think this is also the reason St. Matthew put in the genealogy.