Posted on 08/27/2007 3:45:42 PM PDT by maryz
Dear Editor
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi.
“Have you ‘heard’ Mass lately?”
In recent months I have seen reports of a move in the church to make the Mass of Pope Pius V (Tridentine Mass) more available to the laity. This would include returning to the Mass being “said” by the priest with his back to the people. A recent article on this subject in the Tupelo paper, the Daily Journal, quoted one lay woman who attends this Mass describe the priest as the pilot and the laity as passengers. She said she would not want the pilot flying her plane to be facing the passengers.
I have some questions I wish to raise regarding the Mass of Pius V.
1. Does the Mass of Pius V give the worshipper a sense of God’s presence (the holy) among the worshippers gathered or is the “holy” only present on the altar?
2. Does the Mass of Pius V give the worshipper a sense of being gathered together for corporate worship or private, personal devotion?
3. Does the Mass of Pius V help foster in the worshipper a sense of their own priesthood (per baptism) which enables them to offer the Mass with the priest (per ordination)?
4. Does the Mass of Pius V promote in the worshipper a sense of God who is immersed in the world and their life, or a sense of God removed from the world and their life? A God removed from flesh or a God made flesh?
5. Does the Mass of Pius V help convey the bond of intimacy between God and his people intended by the covenant ritual or does it promote a sense of God’s aloofness from his people?
One of the most potent tools the church has to catechize both the priests and laity is the way Mass is celebrated, whether that of Pius V or Paul VI. These two forms of the Mass operate from very different theologies. They convey very different ideas about God, Jesus, holiness, priesthood, laity, worship, and spirituality – I believe the Mass of Pius V, with its heavy emphasis on the transcendent nature of God contributed to most Catholics not receiving Holy Communion at Mass. It took Pope Pius X to make it a law of the church for Catholics to receive Holy Communion at least once-a-year for them to be in good standing in the church. I am old enough to remember those days.
Do we truly want to go back to an experience of Mass where the priest’s role is described as “saying Mass” and the laity’s role that of “hearing Mass”
“Lex orandi, lex credendi.”
Interesting comment!
Bigg Red, from your comment on another thread, I thought you might have something to say about this! I don't mean to stalk you. Really! ;-)
I just happened to notice this line:
“Does the Mass of Pius V help foster in the worshipper a sense of their own priesthood (per baptism)...”
Priesthood via baptism ? Isn’t that pretty much a Mormon idea ?
While many Catholics today speak freely about the "priesthood of all believers," the Pope is careful to emphasize that the ministerial priesthood is a very special calling. The teachings of Vatican II, he observes, make a clear distinction "between the priesthood of the People of God, common to all the faithful, and the hierarchical or ministerial priesthood." That difference, he continues, is a difference "in essence and not only in degree."
Distinctions tend to float right by the modern ear, leaving no impression.
Huh???
Anyway, that emphasis goes with the holding-hands, parish life coordinator, orans position for the laity, community-community-community! constellation.
BTW, they got rid of that professor the year after I graduated. Seems one student that year was the niece of a bishop (quite conservative and orthodox) and she told him about the course.
Anyway, that emphasis goes with the holding-hands, parish life coordinator, orans position for the laity, community-community-community! constellation.
&&&
Amen! That junk makes me want to scream. I am so sick of these modernists.
To answer the person quoted:
Yes, I want the priest’s back to me, and, yes, I want to hear him say the Mass.
When the priest’s back is to me, we are both praising God together instead of communicating with one another over the “dinner table” that the sacred altar has now become. When the priest is “saying” the Mass, he is saying it in my name. The congregation doesn’t even say everything the priest says in the current monstrosity we call the Mass. The priest has a special role.
And as for you, maryz, stalk away, my FRiend! :-)
I'm not sure how much more "among his worshippers" He's gonna get than on the altar, unless of course we process bearing the Lord on high. But at least in the Pian rite we know He's on the altar.
2. Does the Mass of Pius V give the worshipper a sense of being gathered together for corporate worship or private, personal devotion?
We're all kneeling together, along with the angels and the saints around the same re-presentation. How much more corporate can you be??
3. Does the Mass of Pius V help foster in the worshipper a sense of their own priesthood (per baptism) which enables them to offer the Mass with the priest (per ordination)?
"Assisting at the Mass" has always been understood to be the role everyone at the Mass besides the priest. Duh.
4. Does the Mass of Pius V promote in the worshipper a sense of God who is immersed in the world and their life, or a sense of God removed from the world and their life? A God removed from flesh or a God made flesh?
Is this one of those immanence/transcendence questions? Cause it sounds a lot like a pagan perspective on pantheism...
5. Does the Mass of Pius V help convey the bond of intimacy between God and his people intended by the covenant ritual or does it promote a sense of God’s aloofness from his people?
I'm not sure how much more intimate one can be with God than to see Him called down to the altar, raised on high, and adored. If you don't achieve a contemplative state in the Pian Mass, you aren't ready. This is the high point of the Pian Mass. It should be the high point of every Mass.
The priest who wrote this is an idiot. Where was he when we were being treated to “clown Masses” during the 70s & 80s? Where was he when the number of people going to Holy Comunion was rising but the number of people who believed that Christ was truly present in the sacrament of the Altar was astronomically low? True or False: The Mass of Paul VI has given us more people attending Mass on Sunday, an active apostolate, increases in vocations to the priesthood and religious life? No, Father, your new-fangled Mass has seen the deconstruction of our Church which is just what Satan wanted. When the priest has his back to the people while praying the Canon of the Mass two things likely: 1. people realize that they are NOT the center of attention; God is and 2. the Mass is a re-enactment of the SACRIFICE of the Son in whom we are baptized to the Father. Why is this important? Because Christ came to be OUR sacrifice in atonement for our sins. We deserved death; Christ took the blows for us. That is what the Mass is. Of course in a world where sin no longer exists (hence no one goes to confession) then the Sacrifice of Christ to the Father on our behalf is irrelevant. Instead we only need Sunday pep rallies hosted by Father
“with his back to the people” is about as fair of a description of the actual position (leading the people) as “turning against the people” is of facing the people.
>> Bishop Robinson <<
Vicky Eugenia Robinson?
No, let's not go backwards, let's move forward with Holy Mother Church, with Pope Benedict XVI. Let's really go forward and leave "modernism" in the past where it belongs and enter the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with renewed reverence, attention, and devotion. The Mass of the Roman Rite in both its forms (Missal of 1962 & 1970) must be reverent, and not, as veritas2002 points out, "Sunday pep rallies hosted by Father". I think most "modernists" aren't so modern anymore (after all, isn't the average age of the modernist about 70--give or take a few years?). What I've seen is that the young people who come to Church want uncompromised truth and a radical sense of the sacred.
The Pope is calling for a continuity in the Tradition by encouraging both forms of the Roman Rite to be available and for them to mutually enrich one another. The Society of St. John Cantius has been doing this all along, thanks be to God!
By the way, as a priest since 2000 I can honestly say that both the priest and the people pray better and in deeper communion ad orientem, towards the East--towards God (regardless of the Missal or language used). That's not a theological argument--it's a simple fact.
I meant to ping you above. God bless...
It sounds more like he's setting up as the only alternatives Aristotle's Prime Mover and pantheism! Maybe he just phrases things badly . . .
People are social animals, and facing other people, well, the impulse and instinct is to socialize, to make social contact! Not a bad thing of itself, of course -- probably keeps law-of-the-jungle behavior to a minimum. But not really conducive to prayer.
And this is exactly what these people want to blur and minimize. The writer is a priest -- does his sharing this attitude mean he doesn't want the responsibility? Back in the late 60s and 70s, I seem to recall the occasional article in the popular press in which a priest (or bishop) emphasized the importance of priests being "friends" with lay men and women. This was pretty much the time frame in which priests started leaving in droves to get married and the bulk of the homosexual abuse took place. Coincidence?
...importance of priests being “friends” ....
&&
I think you are definitely right there. I guess that’s where that nonsense of addressing a priest as “Father [first name] began. Never hear me do that!
If we are all “priests” why not just abolish the priesthood altogether, right? I seem to recall reading, BTW, that there are now parishes being headed by laypeople or by sisters. Sad!
I thought that was the plan! Incrementally, of course . . .;-)
Oh, wait -- where would that leave those "womynpriest" types? Sometimes there's no easy answer . . .
I find this attitude (common in some "Traditionalist" circles), extremely off-putting. To say the least.
Many abhominations have been committed ... but the Mass is not an abhomination. To call it such is abhominable.
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