Posted on 08/24/2007 4:35:33 PM PDT by NYer
How do any of the Saints in Heaven hear us?
What cult or denomination do you claim as your own? What, if any, of the Christian Creeds do you assert?
The end!
The same God you claim to worship, whom you callously call His mother "dead?"
I resent that the prots continuously accuse Catholics of "worship" of Mary, when in fact, they do not, yet continuously thank her for saying "yes" to Our Lord, whom she too faithfully and unabashedly worships.
Without her "yes" we all might be spinning our wheels. A "goddess" does not worship another god. Sheesh.
I don't see that that follows. Knowing more than I know and being able to do more than I can do doesn't mean that one knows everything that can be known or can do everything that can be done, any more than Say, Dubya's being able to run faster than I can means that he can run at the speed of light.
So Mary could "hear" more, even WAY more, than you or I can hear without being omniscient or omnipotent.
So praying to her does not logically require that one believe she is omniscient or omnipotent.
I imagine you disagree, but it seems to me whatever one believes one has to see that being able to do more doesn't mean being able to do everything.
2, 3 ... what’s a chapter here or there between friends?
Me too! I'm a Catholic!
“Narses, I realize you are devouted to the worship of Mary...”
You realize nothing. I worship God. The Mother of God I venerate along with the Saints. I do note that you have yet to identify what cult or sect you adhere to nor what, if any, creeds you assert. You do lie about what the article says and what I believe which tends to discredit your arguments.
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I think you are committing an abominable sin in your beliefs and practices regarding Mary.Since you keep telling LIES about my beliefs, your 'thinking' is flawed. Open your eyes and read the plain English of what I have said rather than the lies your hatred injects.
We can say we venerate our Holy Mother and first (I remember this from my days as a Prot) it just flat gives Protestants the creeps to hear or read that. And then they think the distinction between veneration and worship is some kind of self-deceiving rationalization and they want us to quit with the doubletalk.
And from MY point of view, Protestants seem to have a binary view of the universe. Mary can't know more than they unless she is omnipotent. The idea of a gradation seems unthinkable.
Protestants seem to have a very great distinction between sacred and secular. Catholic thinkers, I daresay, imagine that the sacred has been kind of leaking into the secular all along, and that dribble became a stream after the Incarnation, so that, for example, Matrimony becomes a vehicle of Divine grace, not only for the couple but for their family and those who know them, and maybe even those who don't know them.
Protestants seem to think that there is nothing vitally or dangerously holy going on right now, between the cross and the second coming. People die, they're dead, until the last judgment. I guess we think about heaven and hell and judgment and all, but mostly we think about and pray to God and the saints and live our relationship right now -- at least I do, or try to.
We think of authoritative revelation as something going on right now, and our trust in it is based on our Trust in God's promises. We expect to learn about God in community, and in a community modeled not on a parliamentary polity but on a very large family. Protestants seem to want to think that if they had nothing but a Bible they could dope out all of Christianity. We would say, well, yeah, and if you had God's grace as well, you probably could, but what a lot of unnecessary trouble! We HAVE a community, a crowd of extremely disreputable earthen vessels, mostly, but the treasure those vessels contain is precious beyond imagining, and of such power that even some of the most crude and cracked terra-cotta containers sometimes suddenly turn to gold. And we marvel and rejoice at the sight and try to learn from it and from them.
But in any event, not only will we fail to persuade one another, we probably won't come within a mile of understanding one another without considerable forbearance.
And as soon as I get some I'll let you know.
One secret - the ONLY thing protties feel they have to offer God is prayer. The cannot offer the Sacrifice of the Mass, they do not believe their works or penance have any value, prayer alone is worship to them. Therefore any hint of worship that even LOOKS like it is directed elsewhere offends them and strikes them as idolatry.
Oy vey! He instituted the Pope, the ceremony of ceremonies (do this) and how old was he anyway? 33? We accept this by Tradition! V’s wife.
“Narses, I realize you are devouted to the worship of Mary...”
ALERT*****CATHOLIC EYES ONLY****** ALERT
IAY inkthay isthay ellowfay Istianchray isay onay toay ouray ecretsay Arymay orshipway!!!! Implementay Esuitjay overcay upay anplay 145-aD!! Eployday!! Eployday!! Armelitecay unnay ommandoscay onay outeray!
Eegardsfray
You paint Protestants with too wide a brush. Many orthodox Protestant denominations believe that Mary was the Mother of God, was most blessed and remained a virgin for her entire life.
It does have that certain Catholic urban legend whiff but he Did say it was him. However, I can find Nothing Else about this person on Google. He surely did not spring forth fully grown from the head of Mary, did he?
Ailhay Arymay,
Ullfay ofyay Acegray,
Ethay Ordlay isyay ithway eethay.
Essedblay artyay outhay amongyay omenway,
andyay essedblay isyay ethay uitfray
ofyay ythay ombway, Esusjay.
Olyhay Arymay,
Othermay ofyay Odgay,
aypray orfay usyay innerssay ownay,
andyay atyay ethay ourhay ofyay eathday.
Amenyay.
“Eginningbay ithway Ary’smay uniqueyay ooperationcay ithway ethay orkingway ofyay ethay Olyhay Iritspay, ethay Urcheschay evelopedday eirthay ayerpray otay ethay olyhay Othermay ofyay Odgay, enteringcay ityay onyay ethay Ersonpay ofyay Istchray anifestedmay inyay Ishay ysteriesmay. Inyay ountlesscay ymnshay andyay antiphonsyay expressingyay isthay ayerpray, otway ovementsmay usuallyyay alternateyay ithway oneyay anotheryay: ethay irstfay “agnifiesmay” ethay Ordlay orfay ethay “eatgray ingsthay” Ehay idday orfay Ishay owlylay ervantsay andyay oughthray erhay orfay allyay umanhay eingsbay. Ethay econdsay entrustsyay ethay upplicationssay andyay aisespray ofyay ethay ildrenchay ofyay Odgay otay ethay Othermay ofyay Esusjay, ecausebay eshay ownay owsknay ethay umanityhay ichwhay, inyay erhay, ethay Onsay ofyay Odgay espousedyay.”
- omfray ethay Atechismcay ofyay ethay Atholiccay Urchchay; 2675.
ARRRRRRHHHHG!! You have given out all our secrets!!! You better hope none of our fellow non-apostolic Christians can crack our secret Arymay orshipingway odecay!! If our secret is found out, some of our fellow Christians will think...even worse of us! Already they suspect...
Freegards
ps remember the underground Rosary network,”worrying our beads...TO FREEDOM!!”
It is true there are many many varieties of Protestants and also true that this mires the discussions we have with Protestants. Catholics have dogma lots of Protestants, if they even refer to themselves as Protestants do not. We Catholics understand that Martin Luther had a great reverence for the Blessed Mother, certainly this is or was (?) the case with Episcopalians and others I'm sure I haven't listed. Perhaps it would courteous for those who accuse us of Mary worship to identify themselves. What denomination or permutation of denomination they belong to if they belong to anything outside of themselves. In this regard those who attack our beliefs have us at a disadvantage. Our beliefs are well publicized those who attack us love to rip chunks of Scripture from the bible, out of context and wave them in our faces. It would be nice to know just which interpretation of those Scriptures they adhere to.
(I will NEVER do that again until I learn to type!)(Anyway, THAT oughta settle their hash!)
SOME Episcopalians. A minority of the clergy.
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