She says Cardinal Mahony said, "The Catholic Church is not the only church"

LA Catholic ^ | July 30, 2007

[NYer]

Today's (July 30) Los Angeles Times carries an article (click on this post's title) about Cardinal Roger Mahony's meetings with clergy sex abuse victims.

Here is an excerpt:

"Two sisters, Elizabeth, 56, and Mary, 51, arrived full of anger for their February meeting. But they said they felt a real connection with Mahony as he looked through old photographs that showed them, as children, with their abuser, Brother Joe Stadtfeld. In one, the monk was holding Elizabeth, then in grade school, on his lap, giving her a kiss.

"They also shared with the cardinal several letters from Stadtfeld, who died in 1995, asking for their forgiveness. 'No longer did it feel like we were alleged victims,' Elizabeth said of the meeting. 'We felt that [Mahony] believed, that he believed that this happened.'

"Mary also told Mahony that she hoped to return to some form of spirituality but that because of the abuse, she could no longer believe in the Catholic [C]hurch.

"The response from the leader of L.A.'s Catholics surprised her. 'He said to me, "The Catholic [C]hurch is not the only church,"' Mary said."

If this sad lady's recollection of their conversation in February is accurate, don't you think our Prince of the Church could have said something better to her, something that would help her return to the Sacraments and to real spiritual help and solace?

Perhaps the Cardinal or his spokesman Tod Tamberg could respond publicly to the L.A. Times article in order to clear things up about what His Eminence said, or meant.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

That’s the sticking point. A heretic loses jurisdiction in the matter in which he departs from the Church but remains the legal occupant of the office. An apostate is no longer Catholic and can be ignored altogether. Anything he rules is meaningless.

I’m trying to figure out if Mahony is simply a heretic or an all out apostate. The above statement leans towards the latter.

[Salvation]

We need to pray for Roger Cardinal Mahony.

[Patriotic1]

Pope St. Pius X, pray for this man’s soul.

[jobim]

From my observation here of priests who seem to stray further and further from Church teachings, I recall the words from a priest who has made lecture tapes for St. Joseph Communications, an excellent priest from Colorado, Fr. Regis Scanlon I think.

He says that as a priest continues to receive the Body of Christ while in a state of mortal sin from either immorality or heresy, his faith continues to disappear. He quotes the Bible passage wherein Christ put the morsel of bread dipped in wine on the tongue of Judas, "and at that moment the Devil entered him."

We are either moving closer to Christ, or further away, never standing still, according to Fr. John Hardon.

[NYer]

He says that as a priest continues to receive the Body of Christ while in a state of mortal sin from either immorality or heresy, his faith continues to disappear. He quotes the Bible passage wherein Christ put the morsel of bread dipped in wine on the tongue of Judas, "and at that moment the Devil entered him."

Interesting! This is the first time I have heard that and it makes perfect sense, given what we have witnessed with some priests.

[tioga]

Let us judge the Church by her saints, not by her sinners.

-now THOSE words were inspired by the Holy Spirit...

[Zionist Conspirator]

I'll never understand how Catholics can be so "reactionary" in almost every area except for Biblical inerrancy.

I'd like to believe that all the Catholics on this thread who actually have the backbone to stand up against the notion of all religions being equal (the most omnipresent false idea of our time) would also be able to say that the world was created in six days and that Methuselah lived 969 years, but I learned long ago that no matter how "reactionary" most conservative Catholics are there are certain lines they cannot bring themselves to cross.

The very few Catholics who will cross that line must be very lonely (not to mention the self-doubt at being considered "not really Catholic" by most of their co-religionists).

[Straight Vermonter]

The countdown to Mahony's retirement is on.

[Youngstown]

Mahony: "The Catholic [C]hurch is not the only church"

If this is true, then is not the speaker a heretic? And if this man is a heretic, then did he also not cease to be a bishop? Are the faithful bound to obey, support and follow a "bishop" who is a public heretic? I wouldn't have thought so.

Because of the extreme danger an individual such as this presents to the Faith and to the Church - and to the good of countless souls - the laity are required to hold as anathema and to absolutely seperate themselves from any formal heretic, i.e one who is public, knowing, and obstinant in his heresy.

A formal heretic such as Mahony loses ALL authority and jurisdcion, in all matters, and ireedemably so, by his own act of heresy, without any need for judgement by the Church. All that remains is to throw the bum out on the street - or to persuade the State of California to take him in. Interestingly enough Section 7 of "Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio", which I cite below, permits the laity to request the state to remove a heretical squatter from the premises. Fat chance on enlisting Arnold for that!

St. Thomas Aquinas on loss of jurisdiction by heretics:

Summa, 2a 2ae, q. 39, art. 3. (Utrum schismatici habeant aliquam potestatem)

"...Potestas autem iurisdictionis est quae ex simplici iniunctione hominis confertur; et talis potestas non immobiliter adhaeret; unde in schismaticis et haereticis non manet; unde non possunt nec absolvere, nec excommunicare, nec indulgentias facere, aut aliquid huiusmodi; quod si fecerint, nihil est actum."

 (Whether schismatics have any power.)

"...The power of jurisdiction, however [as opposed to the power of Orders, which he has just discussed], is that [power] which is conferred simply by the injunction of man; and this power does not adhere immovably; therefore it does not remain in schismatics and heretics. Hence they can neither absolve, nor excommunicate, nor grant indulgences, or anything of this sort. If they do this, the act is null."
 

Code of Canon Law (1917), Canon 188.4:

Canon 188:  "Ob tacitam renuntiationem ab ipso iure admissam quaelibet officia vacant ipso facto et sine
ulla declaratione, si clerus ...     (4) a fide catholica publice defecerit."

Canon 188:  "There are certain causes which effect the tacit resignation of an office, which resignation is accepted in advance by operation of law, and hence is effective without any declaration.  These causes are:
(4) if he has publicly fallen away from the Catholic faith."

CUM EX APOSTOLATUS OFFICIO
APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION OF HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL IV, 15TH FEBUARY 1559
(ROMAN BULLARIUM VOL. IV. SEC. I, PP. 354-357)

6. In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define:-]

that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:

(i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;

(ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation;

(iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way;....

7. Finally, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We] also [enact, determine, define and decree]:-

that subject persons, be they members of anysoever of the following categories:

(i) the clergy, secular and religious;

(ii) the laity;....

shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs (the same subject persons, nevertheless, remaining bound by the duty of fidelity and obedience to any future Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Roman Pontiff canonically entering).

To the greater confusion, moreover, of those thus promoted or elevated, if these shall have wished to prolong their government and authority, they shall be permitted to request the assistance of the secular arm against these same individuals thus promoted or elevated; nor shall those who withdraw on this account, in the aforementioned circumstances, from fidelity and obedience to those thus promoted and elevated, be subject, as are those who tear the tunic of the Lord, to the retribution of any censures or penalties.

8. [The provisions of this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity are to take effect] notwithstanding any Constitutions, Apostolic Ordinations, privileges, indults or Apostolic Letters,....

[Andrew Byler]

Well, lets continue to pray for Cardinal Mahoney’s conversion to Catholicism.

[ducdriver]

they want to ram Islam down every non-Muslim’s throat.

Or cut it.

[ducdriver]

Code of Canon Law (1917), Canon 188.4 Let's be clear - this was abrogated Jan 25, 1983 (Can 6., §1). See Can. 194, Code of Canon Law (1983).

[part deux]

We have been praying for 20 years every Sunday and he is regressing. Ofcourse we will continue, but I believe the 3-1/2 years until age 75 retirement will occur before he changes any behavior. Maybe we should change the prayers that he does no more damage and is busy in criminal court.

[part deux]

We have been praying for 20 years every Sunday and he is regressing. Ofcourse we will continue, but I believe the 3-1/2 years until age 75 retirement will occur before he changes any behavior. Maybe we should change the prayers that he does no more damage and is busy in criminal court.

[part deux]

Please excuse the echo posting

[murphE]

The very few Catholics who will cross that line must be very lonely (not to mention the self-doubt at being considered "not really Catholic" by most of their co-religionists).

I believe that God became man, Virgin birth, that bread and wine becomes Our Lord - body, blood, soul, and divinity, at the words of a priest etc. Once you get past that a 900 year old man and a world created in six days doesn't seem like such a big deal. And I don't give a hoot about what other Catholics say about me.

[vox_freedom]

I believe that God became man, Virgin birth, that bread and wine becomes Our Lord - body, blood, soul, and divinity, at the words of a priest etc. Once you get past that a 900 year old man and a world created in six days doesn't seem like such a big deal. And I don't give a hoot about what other Catholics say about me.

Well said, my friend...

[Blessed]

>So the good Cardinal Mahoney is saying there is salvation ouside the Catholic Church?? It’s a good thing he isn’t teaching catechism.<

Time to impeach the Pope since he said their was salvation through other Churches and community of Faiths.And it says the same thing on the Vatican Web sight.

[Youngstown]

Code of Canon Law (1917), Canon 188.4 Let's be clear - this was abrogated Jan 25, 1983 (Can 6., §1). See Can. 194, Code of Canon Law (1983).

Yes, the apostates of the 'Church of Vatican2' did remove the automatic loss of office due to heresy from their own heretical 1983 Code - which catches and damns them in the act of holding the smoking gun.

They were all ousted by its provisions prrior to 1983 and most importantly the principle is based on Divine Law and they can basically go pound sand.

St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church:  "For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is "ipso facto" deposed."

St Robert Bellarmine, "De Romano Pontifice", ("On the Roman Pontiff"), liber II, caput 30:

"For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is "ipso facto" deposed. The argument from authority is based on St. Paul (Titus, c. 3), who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate - which means before any excommunication or judicial sentence. And this is what St. Jerome writes, adding that the other sinners are excluded from the Church by sentence of excommunication, but the heretics exile themselves and separate themselves by their own act from the body of Christ. Now, a Pope who remains Pope cannot be avoided, for how could we be required to avoid our own head? How can we separate ourselves from a member united to us?

"This principle is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. de great. Christ. cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic cannot be Pope.

Est ergo quinta opinio vera, papam haereticum manifestum per se desinere esse papam et caput, sicut per se desinit esse christianus et membrum corporis Ecclesiae; quare ab, Ecclesia posse eum judicari et puniri. Haec est sententia omnium veterum Patrum, qui docent, haereticos manifestos mox amittere omnem jurisdictionem.

"Therefore, the true opinion is the fifth, according to which the Pope who is manifestly a heretic ceases by himself to be Pope and head, in the same way as he ceases to be a Christian and a member of the body of the Church; and for this reason he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the opinion of all the ancient Fathers, who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction,

Fundamentum hujus sententiae est. quoniam haereticus manifestos nullo modo est membrum Ecclesiae, idest, neque animo neque corpore, sive neque unione interna, neque externa.

"The foundation of this argument is that the manifest heretic is not in any way a member of the Church, that is, neither spiritually nor corporally, which signifies that he is not such by internal union nor by external union.