Posted on 08/02/2007 8:25:20 AM PDT by NYer
FROM GERMANY
FROM SWITZERLAND
during Mass at a Catholic Church in Switzerland.
“...stop defending the indefensible.” What on earth are you talking about? My contention never was that there are 33,000 denominations. There could be. But I don’t know. It depends in large measure on what is used to define a discreet amount of difference constituting a break in a religious body. That there are some thousands I’m inclined to accept, though, considering only the significant differences in various bodies brings us down into the mere hundreds.
That being said, the real issue, I would say, is not over-parsing “exact” numbers, but lamenting the the fact that there are denominational differences at all. That, it seems to me, is what is truly indefensible in the sight of God.
NYer, what is the obligation of a Catholic if one is faced with stuff like this...
...you grab the first person you see after Mass who sits on the Parish Council,and let that individual know you are not happy...most Parish Council people would love to introduce this kind of stuff to deal with...
Over 9,000 Christian denominations are represented in the World Christian Database. The number of denominations is too great to list here, so the number of denominations which are represented in each country are listed below: LINK
Alex, whether it's 9,000, 2,000, 100 or 30,000+, the point still remains that Jesus Christ established one Church, not many. Scripture reveals this Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18). By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).
LOL!! Wait until they get their first homosexual Pope who’ll want to put mauve carpeting in the Vatican and enjoy having his picture take next to Michelaglelo’s David. I’ll get a chuckle out of reading the defense of the Church then...
...another classy post from a non-Catholic brother...
It’s truly unfortunate some of you, who hold yourselves up as Christians, feel compelled to come to Catholic Christian threads just to scoff and mock...
...while I totally understand your frustration, I urge you not to waste the effort necessary to appeal to the good Dr. Eckelwhatever’s reason and intellect, as he has none at all of either...it’s like peeing up a rope, trying to engage him in anything resembling debate...
the truth is no Protestant believes Bakker, Swaggart, Haggard, nor any man on earth is infallible, or that there is any mediator between man and God but Jesus Christ..
...ah, and now the good doctor further reveals his ignorance...pray tell, sir, what Catholic believes that any man on earth is infallible? Are you perhaps referring to the Holy Father? Is that what you believe, sir? That we think the Pope himself to be sinless? That we think he wakes up in the morning and goes through his entire day incapable of error? That he is free from the sin of Adam, due to his office? How uninformed of you, Dr...did you get your degree on line somewhere? And do you also believe we Catholics cannot pray directly to God? Do you believe we petition earthbound luminaries before we offer our thoughts to the Lord? How is it possible for you to exhibit such hidebound foolishness, being a degreed individual and all...
Blasphemy.
He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me (Luke 10:16)
Talk around it all you want, but "another Christ" is blasphemy any way you cut it.
Protestants understand the RCC doctrine that teaches a pope is infallible only in matters of faith (presuming incorrectly that faith is a small matter.)
No man on earth is infallible in matters of faith save Jesus Christ, the Word of God made flesh.
At this point, you are arguing with a very clear scripture.
"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
And having an high priest over the house of God;
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." -- Hebrews 10:9-22
So? It doesn’t mean Christ did not say “As my father sent me, I send you”, or “Whoever hears you hears me” or “do this in memorial of me” or “forgive them their sins”.
Hebrews 10 is also correct, of course. The alter Christus does not atone for sins with his own flesh.
With resepects,
Matthew 7:6
DV
Acts 8:30 also comes to mind.
;OD
There is no such person as “alter Christus.” There is only the Redeemer, the redeemed and the condemned.
It's not a question of what man is "infallible" (although if memory serves me correctly there is a decree from the Church that the Pope is infallible on matters of faith). The question is whether every single doctrine and belief of faith from the Catholic Church has been corrected throughout the history of the Church based upon tradition. That is what the Catholic Church teaches. Now if every doctrine coming from the Church were correct then the sales of indulgences for getting your Aunt Lulu out of pergatory would have been correct and never should have been rescinded. So the Church DID error either by issuing the sales of indulgences in the first place or later by rescinding them.
It's simple logic to tell me the Church has not always been infallible. And I don't need a degree (online or otherwise) to tell me that.
There is no historical or scriptural evidence that Peter was the first Pope as is claimed. But I have wondered why the Catholic Church, in their list of papal secession, fail to list the Apostle John as the next Pope after Peter. Peter and Paul were martyred around the same time but John died many years later. True he was imprisoned but, according to Clement, later was released. So, it would seem natural to me that John should have succeeded Peter since he was, after all, a true apostle.
"He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool." -- Proverbs 10:18
You guys seem incapable of following the stated rules on the FR religion forum, but instead must rely on personal assaults and childish name-calling.
All that simply shows the poverty of your argument and the lack of discernment given to you.
"Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee." -- Psalm 32:9
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