A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 12: Purgatory

OLRL ^ | Fr. William J. Cogan

[NYer]

Lesson 12: Purgatory

"And the day following Judas [Machabeus] came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.  And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews:  So that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.  Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.  And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought Him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten.  But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.  And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead), and because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.  It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."  (2 Machabees 12:39-46)

1. What is Purgatory?
       A place and state of temporary punishment in the next world.  Hell, on the other hand, is a place of eternal or everlasting punishment.

• What does the word "Purgatory" mean?
      It means "cleansing" (or "purging").  Purgatory is a place where the soul is cleansed of unforgiven venial sin and/or the "debt" of sins already forgiven but not yet made up for.

  "If any one abide not in Me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth."    (John 15:6)

• How do you know there is a Purgatory?
      The constant teaching and practice of the Catholic Church, based on the Bible and tradition, and even common sense, prove the existence of Purgatory.

• How does common sense indicate the existence of Purgatory?
      Only people with mortal sin go to Hell, and on the other hand, no one can enter Heaven with even the smallest sin.  Therefore, there must be a place in the next world where lesser sins can be taken off the soul.

• Who will go to Purgatory?
      People who die with Sanctifying Grace in their souls, but --
  1. who die with venial sin on their souls, or
  2. who have not completed (satisfied for) the punishment still due to their already forgiven sins.

• What is meant by the "punishment still due to sin"?
     This means that, even though God forgives your sins, He still requires that you be punished for them (i.e. "pay" for them), either in this life or in the next.

  For example:  A boy playing ball in his yard breaks his neighbor's window.  He goes and tells the lady he is sorry, and she forgives him but she tells him he will still have to pay for the window.

• Do you suffer in Purgatory?
     Yes.  Besides not being allowed to see God face to face, the souls in Purgatory suffer a great deal.

  "The fire of Purgatory", says St. Augustine, "is more terrible than man can suffer in this life."

• How long will you have suffer in Purgatory?
     That depends on the number and seriousness of the sins to be atoned for.

  "My soul hath thirsted after the strong living God; when shall I come and appear before the face of God."    (Psalm 41:3)

• Where do you go when you leave Purgatory?
     To Heaven to see God and enjoy Him forever.

  "Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not come out from thence till thou repay the last farthing."    (Matthew 5:26)

• Will Purgatory ever end?
     Yes, at the Last Judgment.  After that all souls will be in either Heaven or Hell forever.

• Can you help the souls in Purgatory?
     You can shorten their stay by having Masses said for them, by praying for them and by doing good works for them.

  "Have pity on me, have pity on me, at least you my friends, because the hand of the Lord hath touched me."    (Job 19:21)

• Does the Bible say anything about praying for the dead?
     Yes.  We read that Judas Machabeus, "sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifices to be offered for the sins of the dead."  (2 Machabees 12:43)

• How can you avoid Purgatory?
  Avoid even the smallest faults, do penance for sins already forgiven, gain indulgences and receive Extreme Unction (See Lesson 26.)

PRACTICAL POINTS

1. All Souls' Day is the day set aside by the Church for special prayers and Masses for all the souls suffering in Purgatory.  It is celebrated every year on November 2.

2. The souls in Purgatory cannot help themselves.  We should help them by our prayers and sacrifices.  They, in turn, can and do pray for us.

3. The souls in Purgatory are known as the Poor Souls.

4. Litany for the Poor Souls

[GoLightly]

Interesting read, though I did find it difficult to figure out just why Martin Luther contended that the Apocrypha were “sub-sciptural.” I would wonder why he would think such a thing.

Early on, Luther was in close contact with a Jewish fellow & it probably influenced his view about the Old Testament. I believe the Apocrypha was written during the height of the power of the scribes. The Catholic Church calls them Deuterocanical, which means second canon. Whether or not they were important to be included in the canon wasn't as clear cut as the books included in the first canon.

Don't take anyone's word for it. Read them for yourself. If you think they add anything, give you greater understanding about your salvation or your Christian life, let me know.

[GoLightly]

Then you don't understand salvation. If Jesus paid the penalty for our sins on the cross, how come there is some penalty left over for us to pay. If there is, then His blood was not sufficient to wash away our sins.

Must be something like taking a shower. The dirt comes off you & goes down the drain. While it's washed away, it doesn't cease to exist.

I don't believe we have to go reclaim all of our dirt, cuz that would be like God holding our trespasses against us...

[tbpiper]

But if a man of his learning and devotion sees a place for Purgatory, should his interpretation of Scripture not be considered prayerfully, rather than instantly and unthinkingly rejected as impossible?

No, not when ‘a man of his learning and devotion’ is so obviously off the mark. Now I like C.S. Lewis. I have learned much from him over the years. The Chronicles of Narnia (The Magician’s Nephew is best read as book six and not book one), the Screwtape Letters, Mere Christianity, Till We have Faces, and others have been challenging and instructive, but I don’t have to agree with him particularly when his belief in purgatory is based primarily on opinion, it would seem, since he cites a poet for support rather than scripture.

Take this, for instance, from your quote:

There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer 'With its darkness to affront that light'.

The main problem is this:

the saved soul……… begs to be …… cleansed

The apostle John wrote in 1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

A saved soul is cleansed

He took on our unrighteousness so that we could take on His righteousness. That is the only way we can be acceptable to a holy God. When we stand at the throne, we will be clothed in His righteous garments and not our own filthy rags. To grovel at the thrown begging for more cleansing is telling the Father that the blood of His Son just wasn't quite good enough.

[AnAmericanMother]

He's quoting a well known poem, The Dream of Gerontius, by "a poet" who also happened to be a fellow of Oriel College, Oxford, an Anglican minister of the Calvinist persuasion, later a convert to Catholicism and ultimately a cardinal. Name was John Henry Newman, you may have heard of him.

As I said, I would hesitate to simply dismiss someone that we all know to be a serious scholar, a man learned in Scripture, and a devout Christian, just because his personal interpretation disagrees with yours. Is everything he brings to the table worth nothing?

[sneakers]

bump

[franky1]

Matthew 5:25-26

“Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.”

“prison” = purgatory

“thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.” = purgation of debt (sin)

[franky1]

According to our Lord and scripture Hell exists:

“5:29. And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than thy whole body be cast into hell.

5:22. But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”

[magisterium]

This explanation is incomplete. The definition of “apocrypha” depends on who is doing the defining. For Catholics, “apocrypha” would consist of those books not found in the 73-book Bible. The seven Deuterocanonical books are NOT apocryphal to Catholics. For many Protestants, however, their “apocrypha” consist of any books not found in their 66-book Bible, including the Deuterocanonicals.

So, for Catholics, apocryphal works are such things as the Gospel of James, the Gospel of Thomas, etc. For Protestants, their apocrypha would include those things and also (for many Protstants, anyway) the deuteros.

Hope this helps

[tbpiper]

Is everything he brings to the table worth nothing?

Did I say that? I believe I said I had learned much from Lewis over the years. What I am dismissing is not Lewis but his belief in purgatory based on the scriptures I cited. He apparently believed in it because it seemed reasonable and to support that belief, he references a poem. That may be the perfect scholarly thing to do, but it's not theologically sound. Because of that unsoundness, I'm not going to give him a pass just because he's very scholarly and very devout.

As far as J.H. Newman is concerned, I haven't heard much of him. An Anglican minister with a Calvinist persuasion sounds like rather an odd duck. His Calvinism is perhaps more of a 'lean' than a 'persuasion' otherwise, he wouldn't have slidden off into catholicism.

[magisterium]

NYer,

Many of the replies to this thread would indicate that it might be time to start caucusing these catechism excerpts. Matthew 7:6 and all that. It is not right to subject holy things and God’s providential plan for mankind to unnecessary attack. None of the topics treats to non-Catholic denominations, so the series is perfect for a caucus designation. I hope you consider it.

[AnAmericanMother]

You should read Newman's autobiography, Apologia Pro Vita Sua. It was the result of a public exchange of correspondence between Newman and Charles Kingsley, an immensely gifted man (Westward Ho!, The Water Babies) but an implacable anti-Catholic. Kingsley accused Newman of dishonesty, and Newman basically blasted Kingsley out of the water. He is a remarkable man.

[sirchtruth]

The definition of “apocrypha” depends on who is doing the defining. For Catholics, “apocrypha” would consist of those books not found in the 73-book Bible.

Ok, I'm really confuse now. There is only 66 books in the bible?

[franky1]

The Venerable John Henry Cardinal Newman, JHCN. (February 21, 1801 – August 11, 1890.

Just about every university at one time had a “Newman Center” for its Catholic students. Many have one today and it’s the connection between what is Godly on campus and what is secular.

[tbpiper]

Charles Kingsley, an immensely gifted man, (Lewis)a leading Christian apologist and writer, a serious scholar, a man learned in Scripture, and a devout Christian.

These are the terms you've used (accurately) to describe these men and give them creditability, but that doesn't mean their opinions are to be accepted without challenge.

Kingsley, though a gifted man 'was sympathetic to the idea of evolution, and was one of the first to praise Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species...(and) stated that he(Kingsley) had 'long since, from watching the crossing of domesticated animals and plants, learnt to disbelieve the dogma of the permanence of species' so on that ground alone I'd be suspicious of any of his theological musings.

If Kingsley's attack on Newman was more personal than theological, he should have been blasted out of the water. Newman's personal honesty, I think, is demonstrated by his eventual move to the Catholic church rather than remaining a 'Calvinist Anglican'.

Whatever descriptives that can be attached to these men or any of us, whether scholar, devout Christian, Cardinal, or Pope, if our beliefs do not square with the scriptures then we are just simply wrong no matter how 'reasonable' or comforting those beliefs may be.

[tbpiper]

The Venerable John Henry Cardinal Newman, JHCN. (February 21, 1801 – August 11, 1890.

Just about every university at one time had a “Newman Center” for its Catholic students. Many have one today and it’s the connection between what is Godly on campus and what is secular.

Good, may there be more of them.

Occasionally, I will worship with some friends who are Native Americans. Their worship traditions are a good bit different from my European ancestors but they are nonetheless deep from within their hearts. They're love for the Lord is obvious.

I have had the opportunity to worship with friends from many other traditions as well ranging from Orthodox and Catholic to Pentecost[I do draw the line if rattlesnakes are involved :-) ]What I have learned from all this is that whatever we are in the flesh, we are one in the spirit. We all are of two bloods. By birth, we share the blood of Adam with the sin and all the physical failings that go with it. And we also share, through the unfathomable mercy of God, the shed blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses us from all of our unrighteousness.

[magisterium]

The Catholic Bible has seven more books than the Protestant versions. In addition to the 66 books in, for example, the King James Bible, Catholics also consider 1 and 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Wisdom, Baruch, Judith and Ecclesiasticus (a.k.a. Sirach) as Scripture. From our way of looking at things, these are not “extra” books, rather, the 16th Century Protestants removed these 7 books from their rightful place in the canon of Scripture.

The 7-book discrepancy remains to this day.

[AnAmericanMother]

But then . . . who's to decide?

I was in a church where there was no final authority (ECUSA) and of course it has simply degenerated into pitiful warring factions, most of which have forgotten Scripture and Tradition entirely.

A very fine Catholic priest, a true gentleman, threw us a lifeline into that wreckage.

[sirchtruth]

From our way of looking at things, these are not “extra” books, rather, the 16th Century Protestants removed these 7 books from their rightful place in the canon of Scripture.

Well, this is the first I've ever heard of this. I guess I've been going under the false assumption the council at nicean affirmed what the early church recognized as the 66 book canon. Although, I will say Catholics do introduce extrabiblical doctrine that does not exist as part of scripture. ie: Purgatory...there is no way you can justify being "Born Again" and praying for the dead's salvation. This is a direct contradiction, unless Catholics believe you can become "unborn again"?

[tbpiper]

A very fine Catholic priest, a true gentleman, threw us a lifeline into that wreckage.

A truly Christian thing for him to do. I'm certainly glad you've gotten back on some solid ground. It's never pleasant to have one's church hijacked by those who think "thus sayeth the Lord" is a little too narrow minded for today's sophisticated society.

[AnAmericanMother]

But what about “backsliding” and “stumbling”? You’re not “unborn”, but you do run the risk of rejecting the grace given at baptism . . . .