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To: HarleyD
It isn't as if we are ORDERED to use anything that God gives us.

I get the idea that this is exactly what you believe - that God has already ordained what we will do, ordering us to use or not use His gifts of grace.

Sorry, no dice. That would be a great argument except for the fact that the term "imputed" IS used in the scriptures in relationship to our salvation. So you would need to explain the meaning of imputed righteousness from a Catholic perspective-a very difficult thing to do since Catholics don't believe in it.

Untrue, Harley. I have already said that Catholics believe in imputed righteousness - but it goes BEYOND that. That is not the end of the story. Not only does God CALL us righteous by "legal name", but He MAKES US righteous! Our inner self is now able to choose good because of the Spirit's abiding in us and our new nature. As I tried to say, you are giving half truths.

God looks at the entire span of a life.

Then how is man justified only once when the Bible says that in three instances in the NT, Abraham was DECLARED righteous? The simple solution is that man is not merely justified one time over the course of their lives. When we choose God, we are being justified, being sanctified, being saved...

Calvin certainly didn't believe that works came from individuals nor did he believe one could lose their salvation. That is rather indisputable.

And that is the sad thing, because Catholics do not believe that good works come solely from us, either. It is too bad that people choose not to listen to what the Catholic Church actually teaches, rather than what some Protestant preacher thinks that the Catholic Church teaches. Never have I seen ANYONE who is Catholic teach that our good works come solely from man, brother. Perhaps the idea of synergy bothers you, but THAT is not a "works salvation", because it ultimately and absolutely depends upon God.

Regards

9,968 posted on 10/27/2007 12:12:37 PM PDT by jo kus
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To: jo kus
I get the idea that this is exactly what you believe - that God has already ordained what we will do, ordering us to use or not use His gifts of grace.

In a indirect way that is correct but it is more. God leads, guide and direct us. He is our shepherd. He gives us the tools and equips us to go about His work-whatever that happens to be. When we stumble we learn from those lessons through Him.

I have already said that Catholics believe in imputed righteousness

Not that I doubt your word, but could you point me to where this is official doctrine of the Catholic Church? When I go out to New Advent to look up both "imputed" and "righteousness" I get a lot of blah, blah, blah. Neither of these are even listed. Instead the focus seems to be on infused justification. If I Google on "imputed righteousness" I pull up a LOT of Protestant websites but no Catholic websites.

Then how is man justified only once when the Bible says that in three instances in the NT, Abraham was DECLARED righteous? The simple solution is that man is not merely justified one time over the course of their lives.

Sure, I would agree with that conclusion as shocking as that might sound. Man needs to be justified throughout his lifetime. Righteousness is imputed ONCE; the Holy Spirit works to justify a man over his lifetime.

The difference between the Old Testament people and the New Testament people is that the OT people didn't have the Holy Spirit to help them. They were made righteous but it was an imperfect justification process. Only in a very few cases such as David, did the Holy Spirit indwell the person through their life time. They had to constantly make atonements for themselves. We now have a high priest who makes atonements for us. This is a better covenant.

And that is the sad thing, because Catholics do not believe that good works come solely from us, either.

Here is a rather good article that explains the Council of Trent's view of works. The difference is that the Council says man cannot be justified by performing the works of the Law by his own natural powers but they are still his works performed by him. Protestants believe all works are done by Christ through us.

Perhaps the idea of synergy bothers you, but THAT is not a "works salvation"

It does bother me because Catholics aren't the only ones with this misguided synergistic view. A lot of Protestants will tell you that THEY want to go out and win the world for Christ.

9,987 posted on 10/27/2007 4:54:19 PM PDT by HarleyD (Ezr 3:13 the people could not distinguish the sound of joy from the sound of weeping)
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