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To: jo kus
I get the idea that this is exactly what you believe - that God has already ordained what we will do, ordering us to use or not use His gifts of grace.

In a indirect way that is correct but it is more. God leads, guide and direct us. He is our shepherd. He gives us the tools and equips us to go about His work-whatever that happens to be. When we stumble we learn from those lessons through Him.

I have already said that Catholics believe in imputed righteousness

Not that I doubt your word, but could you point me to where this is official doctrine of the Catholic Church? When I go out to New Advent to look up both "imputed" and "righteousness" I get a lot of blah, blah, blah. Neither of these are even listed. Instead the focus seems to be on infused justification. If I Google on "imputed righteousness" I pull up a LOT of Protestant websites but no Catholic websites.

Then how is man justified only once when the Bible says that in three instances in the NT, Abraham was DECLARED righteous? The simple solution is that man is not merely justified one time over the course of their lives.

Sure, I would agree with that conclusion as shocking as that might sound. Man needs to be justified throughout his lifetime. Righteousness is imputed ONCE; the Holy Spirit works to justify a man over his lifetime.

The difference between the Old Testament people and the New Testament people is that the OT people didn't have the Holy Spirit to help them. They were made righteous but it was an imperfect justification process. Only in a very few cases such as David, did the Holy Spirit indwell the person through their life time. They had to constantly make atonements for themselves. We now have a high priest who makes atonements for us. This is a better covenant.

And that is the sad thing, because Catholics do not believe that good works come solely from us, either.

Here is a rather good article that explains the Council of Trent's view of works. The difference is that the Council says man cannot be justified by performing the works of the Law by his own natural powers but they are still his works performed by him. Protestants believe all works are done by Christ through us.

Perhaps the idea of synergy bothers you, but THAT is not a "works salvation"

It does bother me because Catholics aren't the only ones with this misguided synergistic view. A lot of Protestants will tell you that THEY want to go out and win the world for Christ.

9,987 posted on 10/27/2007 4:54:19 PM PDT by HarleyD (Ezr 3:13 the people could not distinguish the sound of joy from the sound of weeping)
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To: HarleyD
Not that I doubt your word, but could you point me to where this is official doctrine of the Catholic Church?

I think the Council of Trent on Justification commented that justification is more than an imputation - not disagreeing that it was not, but that it was not limited to an external change only. Clearly, the Scriptures tell us that man's nature changes when the Spirit enters and indwells the believer. Anthropology must then change.

Righteousness is imputed ONCE;

Do you think Paul thought that Abraham was once and only once declared righteous?

The difference is that the Council says man cannot be justified by performing the works of the Law by his own natural powers but they are still his works performed by him. Protestants believe all works are done by Christ through us.

Works performed without Christ have absolutely no supernatural merit. Only after the Spirit abides in us can our works be meritorious, and ONLY because of the Spirit's presence. Now, if all works are actually done by Christ through us, what role do we play? Remember, we are of a new nature. Do not apply the old man and his limitations to the new nature and what it can now do, quickened by the Spirit.

It does bother me because Catholics aren't the only ones with this misguided synergistic view. A lot of Protestants will tell you that THEY want to go out and win the world for Christ.

First, the Greek word for synergy is in the Scriptures. God is man's helper, and clearly, the Bible shows that God and man work together. Not as if they are two persons pulling the plow together, so that if one does something, the other does less. But man clearly is responsible for something, otherwise, he wouldn't be judged. Judgment implies that a person has a free choice and is able to do good or bad.

When Catholics or Protestants talk about going out to the world and win people for God, they certainly are not saying that they do it WITHOUT God. That is just the way we speak. Jesus' last words to the Apostles say the same thing in Matthew - "[you] go out to the world and teach what I have taught..." It certainly does not mean that God will be watching with no interest or participation.

Regards

10,000 posted on 10/27/2007 11:04:23 PM PDT by jo kus
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