So, when you say "a prayer" part of it is actual prayer, and part of it is non-prayer worship instead? I've never needed to get that technical on this, but if you want to think of it this way, I suppose I don't see it as the end of the world. :)
Those who hold the Calvinist view of double predestination pray without believing that their prayer will change anything and therefore make empty repetitions knowing that their prayers have no chance of affecting God's decision. It is a senseless act.
Not so at all. Things most certainly change after prayer has occurred. You are right that we don't think we change God's mind, what with God being God and all, but since our prayers are ordained and a part of His will they are most certainly of value and do precipitate change.
If someone is predestined to go to hell, no amount of prayer will change that. Just as no amount of sin will result in someone losing his salvation if he had been saved form before the foundation of the world. It's a rigid system and all activity on our part is useless. Plain and simple.
While you are right that no amount of prayer can change predestination, since it was already finished before there was the first man to pray, you are wrong about our activity being useless. It is very USEFUL because it is all according to God's will. Consider what you are fighting for. You are fighting to show that God's will is that we are free to thwart God's will and defeat Him in His desires. Does that sound like something that would be a part of omnipotent God's will? :) Not to me.
It doesn't say "I knew you were going to pray and cry because I ordained it so, my will be done." How can ADDING years to someone's life be part of His plan if it is not conditional?
I'll show you. "Hey look everybody. I'm God and I'm going to add years to this man's life just because I feel like it. No strings were attached in reality, I phrased it the way I did to make a point in the same way I did when I asked where Adam was in the Garden. I actually like to make my own mind up about things that happen in my universe without any advice from the peanut gallery." There you go. :)
“Not so at all. Things most certainly change after prayer has occurred. You are right that we don’t think we change God’s mind, what with God being God and all, but since our prayers are ordained and a part of His will they are most certainly of value and do precipitate change.”
What change what value where, FK?
In Calvinist thinking, is creation distorted by sin? Can one of the elect, by his very presence somewhere, change creation around him to its created state? Did Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross have any effect on creation aside from people? My guess is that the answer is no, but I ask this sincerely.
That takes us back to the robotoic "elect" who simply go through the motions because God ordained it so.
While you are right that no amount of prayer can change predestination, since it was already finished before there was the first man to pray, you are wrong about our activity being useless
Well, it depends what you mean by useless. If you go to a movie theater and pray that the film you are watching ends one way, then your prayer is useless because the movie will end the way it was choregraphed whether you pray or not. Nothing you do in that movie theater will change the end of that movie. So, your prayers are useless except that they may give you some hope that maybe, by sheer luck the movie will end as you hope it should. But if you already know how it will end, why pray? It's useless no matter how you look at it, FK.
In addition to that, in the Reformed theology, even God is boxed in with His plan (the "movie"), which is now done, is perfect and nothing can change it. Not even God.
“While you are right that no amount of prayer can change predestination, since it was already finished before there was the first man to pray, you are wrong about our activity being useless. It is very USEFUL because it is all according to God’s will. “
By itself, Reformed prayer is simply a mechanical act set according to God’s will but accomplishing nothing, right? If you cannot change God’s will, then supplication is useless, right?
I believe that we had a long discourse here some time ago that prayer is not supplication and we are not actually asking God for anything - it is merely worship.
So, I went to the Larger Confession on the usefulness of the Lord’s Prayer, tucked away neatly at the end of the Confession:
Q. 193. What do we pray for in the fourth petition?
A. In the fourth petition (which is, Give us this day our daily bread), acknowledging that in Adam, and by our own sin, we have forfeited our right to all the outward blessings of this life, and deserve to be wholly deprived of them by God, and to have them cursed to us in the use of them; and that neither they of themselves are able to sustain us, nor we to merit, or by our own industry to procure them; but prone to desire, get, and use them unlawfully: we pray for ourselves and others, that both they and we, waiting upon the providence of God from day to day in the use of lawful means, may, of his free gift, and as to his fatherly wisdom shall seem best, enjoy a competent portion of them; and have the same continued and blessed unto us in our holy and comfortable use of them, and contentment in them; and be kept from all things that are contrary to our temporal support and comfort.
Q. 194. What do we pray for in the fifth petition?
A. In the fifth petition (which is, Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors), acknowledging that we and all others are guilty both of original and actual sin, and thereby become debtors to the justice of God; and that neither we, nor any other creature, can make the least satisfaction for that debt: we pray for ourselves and others, that God of his free grace would, through the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, apprehended and applied by faith, acquit us both from the guilt and punishment of sin, accept us in his Beloved; continue his favor and grace to us, pardon our daily failings, and fill us with peace and joy, in giving us daily more and more assurance of forgiveness; which we are the rather emboldened to ask, and encouraged to expect, when we have this testimony in ourselves, that we from the heart forgive others their offenses.
Q. 195. What do we pray for in the sixth petition?
A. In the sixth petition (which is, And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil), acknowledging that the most wise, righteous, and gracious God, for divers holy and just ends, may so order things, that we may be assaulted, foiled, and for a time led captive by temptations; that Satan, the world, and the flesh, are ready powerfully to draw us aside, and ensnare us; and that we, even after the pardon of our sins, by reason of our corruption, weakness, and want of watchfulness, are not only subject to be tempted, and forward to expose ourselves unto temptations, but also of ourselves unable and unwilling to resist them, to recover out of them, and to improve them; and worthy to be left under the power of them; we pray, that God would so overrule the world and all in it, subdue the flesh, and restrain Satan, order all things, bestow and bless all means of grace, and quicken us to watchfulness in the use of them, that we and all his people may by his providence be kept from being tempted to sin; or, if tempted, that by his Spirit we may be powerfully supported and enabled to stand in the hour of temptation; or when fallen, raised again and recovered out of it, and have a sanctified use and improvement thereof: that our sanctification and salvation may be perfected, Satan trodden under our feet, and we fully freed from sin, temptation, and all evil, forever.
Q. 196. What doth the conclusion of the Lord’s prayer teach us?
A. The conclusion of the Lord’s prayer (which is, For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.) teacheth us to enforce our petitions with arguments, which are to be taken, not from any worthiness in ourselves, or in any other creature, but from God; and with our prayers to join praises, ascribing to God alone eternal sovereignty, omnipotency, and glorious excellency; in regard whereof, as he is able and willing to help us, so we by faith are emboldened to plead with him that he would, and quietly to rely upon him, that he will fulfill our requests. And, to testify this our desire and assurance, we say, Amen.
Sounds like the Reformed are to ask God for help.
Q. 178. What is prayer?
A. Prayer is an offering up of our desires unto God, in the name of Christ, by the help of his Spirit; with confession of our sins, and thankful acknowledgement of his mercies.
Sounds like the Reformed are not to pray to God for help.
Q. 180. What is it to pray in the name of Christ?
A. To pray in the name of Christ is, in obedience to his command, and in confidence on his promises, to ask mercy for his sake; not by bare mentioning of his name, but by drawing our encouragement to pray, and our boldness, strength, and hope of acceptance in prayer, from Christ and his mediation.
Sounds like the Reformed are to pray to God for help.
Q. 184. For what things are we to pray?
A. We are to pray for all things tending to the glory of God, the welfare of the church, our own or others’ good; but not for anything that is unlawful.
Sounds like the Reformed are to pray to God for help.
WCF
CHAPTER 3
Of God’s Eternal Decree
1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:
Sounds like nothing that we do matters, since all has been ordained.
Am I a little mixed up, or is the Reformed faith a tad schizophrenic?