“While you are right that no amount of prayer can change predestination, since it was already finished before there was the first man to pray, you are wrong about our activity being useless. It is very USEFUL because it is all according to God’s will. “
By itself, Reformed prayer is simply a mechanical act set according to God’s will but accomplishing nothing, right? If you cannot change God’s will, then supplication is useless, right?
I believe that we had a long discourse here some time ago that prayer is not supplication and we are not actually asking God for anything - it is merely worship.
So, I went to the Larger Confession on the usefulness of the Lord’s Prayer, tucked away neatly at the end of the Confession:
Q. 193. What do we pray for in the fourth petition?
A. In the fourth petition (which is, Give us this day our daily bread), acknowledging that in Adam, and by our own sin, we have forfeited our right to all the outward blessings of this life, and deserve to be wholly deprived of them by God, and to have them cursed to us in the use of them; and that neither they of themselves are able to sustain us, nor we to merit, or by our own industry to procure them; but prone to desire, get, and use them unlawfully: we pray for ourselves and others, that both they and we, waiting upon the providence of God from day to day in the use of lawful means, may, of his free gift, and as to his fatherly wisdom shall seem best, enjoy a competent portion of them; and have the same continued and blessed unto us in our holy and comfortable use of them, and contentment in them; and be kept from all things that are contrary to our temporal support and comfort.
Q. 194. What do we pray for in the fifth petition?
A. In the fifth petition (which is, Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors), acknowledging that we and all others are guilty both of original and actual sin, and thereby become debtors to the justice of God; and that neither we, nor any other creature, can make the least satisfaction for that debt: we pray for ourselves and others, that God of his free grace would, through the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, apprehended and applied by faith, acquit us both from the guilt and punishment of sin, accept us in his Beloved; continue his favor and grace to us, pardon our daily failings, and fill us with peace and joy, in giving us daily more and more assurance of forgiveness; which we are the rather emboldened to ask, and encouraged to expect, when we have this testimony in ourselves, that we from the heart forgive others their offenses.
Q. 195. What do we pray for in the sixth petition?
A. In the sixth petition (which is, And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil), acknowledging that the most wise, righteous, and gracious God, for divers holy and just ends, may so order things, that we may be assaulted, foiled, and for a time led captive by temptations; that Satan, the world, and the flesh, are ready powerfully to draw us aside, and ensnare us; and that we, even after the pardon of our sins, by reason of our corruption, weakness, and want of watchfulness, are not only subject to be tempted, and forward to expose ourselves unto temptations, but also of ourselves unable and unwilling to resist them, to recover out of them, and to improve them; and worthy to be left under the power of them; we pray, that God would so overrule the world and all in it, subdue the flesh, and restrain Satan, order all things, bestow and bless all means of grace, and quicken us to watchfulness in the use of them, that we and all his people may by his providence be kept from being tempted to sin; or, if tempted, that by his Spirit we may be powerfully supported and enabled to stand in the hour of temptation; or when fallen, raised again and recovered out of it, and have a sanctified use and improvement thereof: that our sanctification and salvation may be perfected, Satan trodden under our feet, and we fully freed from sin, temptation, and all evil, forever.
Q. 196. What doth the conclusion of the Lord’s prayer teach us?
A. The conclusion of the Lord’s prayer (which is, For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.) teacheth us to enforce our petitions with arguments, which are to be taken, not from any worthiness in ourselves, or in any other creature, but from God; and with our prayers to join praises, ascribing to God alone eternal sovereignty, omnipotency, and glorious excellency; in regard whereof, as he is able and willing to help us, so we by faith are emboldened to plead with him that he would, and quietly to rely upon him, that he will fulfill our requests. And, to testify this our desire and assurance, we say, Amen.
Sounds like the Reformed are to ask God for help.
Q. 178. What is prayer?
A. Prayer is an offering up of our desires unto God, in the name of Christ, by the help of his Spirit; with confession of our sins, and thankful acknowledgement of his mercies.
Sounds like the Reformed are not to pray to God for help.
Q. 180. What is it to pray in the name of Christ?
A. To pray in the name of Christ is, in obedience to his command, and in confidence on his promises, to ask mercy for his sake; not by bare mentioning of his name, but by drawing our encouragement to pray, and our boldness, strength, and hope of acceptance in prayer, from Christ and his mediation.
Sounds like the Reformed are to pray to God for help.
Q. 184. For what things are we to pray?
A. We are to pray for all things tending to the glory of God, the welfare of the church, our own or others’ good; but not for anything that is unlawful.
Sounds like the Reformed are to pray to God for help.
WCF
CHAPTER 3
Of God’s Eternal Decree
1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:
Sounds like nothing that we do matters, since all has been ordained.
Am I a little mixed up, or is the Reformed faith a tad schizophrenic?
Now you see why I often use the term "double-talk"? It is a slippery little worm, just when you think you got it figured out, it slips away and you're back to square one...
Now, I am being told that Calvinists believe they are "subjectively saved". Have you ever got that from their "absolute assurance of salvation" in past posts?
Regards
After you posted this, I answered in 9954.
I believe that we had a long discourse here some time ago that prayer is not supplication and we are not actually asking God for anything - it is merely worship.
I don't remember ever saying that myself. God clearly tells us to bring our requests to Him, so supplication is certainly a part of prayer, imo. I have said that it is not the ONLY thing.
Q. 178. What is prayer? A. Prayer is an offering up of our desires unto God, in the name of Christ, by the help of his Spirit; with confession of our sins, and thankful acknowledgement of his mercies.
Sounds like the Reformed are not to pray to God for help.
Why do you say that? If our desire is "help" then the Holy Spirit helps us to ask for help. All the questions you quoted are consistent. We are to ask God for help.
WCF CHAPTER 3 Of God’s Eternal Decree -- 1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:
Sounds like nothing that we do matters, since all has been ordained. Am I a little mixed up, or is the Reformed faith a tad schizophrenic?
I don't know if you're mixed up, but I do know that the Reformed faith is not schizophrenic. :) When you say nothing "matters" to us, I need to know a little more about what you mean by that. God's will being carried out within time on earth matters to God and all Christians because we all want that to happen. If nothing we do "matters" unless man has the power to thwart God's original perfect will, then I would say you are a little mixed up. :)