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There is a clear theme here. The Theology of the Reformation is a God-centered theology where it is God who not only provides the means for our salvation (through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross) but it is God who assures us that our salvation is something that we, in our human frailty, cannot go astray where Christ will not carry us back (by making us new creations in Christ). The Reformed position is that God's sheep (those new creations in Christ) are His and he will not lose any of them. The Reformed can have the assurance of Salvation through the promise of God that none can be snatched from His hand.

The Catholic and Orthodox theology is clearly a self-centered theology wherein God provides nothing more than the opporunity for salvation, but that man is entirely responsible for ensuring and perfecting his own salvation. Objectively it would appear that the Catholic does not believe a man is saved by Christ, but by his own efforts.

Carry on.

“The Catholic and Orthodox theology is clearly a self-centered theology wherein God provides nothing more than the opporunity for salvation, but that man is entirely responsible for ensuring and perfecting his own salvation. Objectively it would appear that the Catholic does not believe a man is saved by Christ, but by his own efforts.”

Can’t speak to the Roman theology of salvation with any confidence, PM, but I can tell you that Orthodoxy’s theology of theosis really isn’t at all about being saved from or to or into anything. It is in part about being restored to.

“Carry on.”

As we have for 2000 years now! :)

Thank you so much for your insightful post, P-Marlowe!

I have used the terms “physical” and “spiritual” to explain my musings on the difference in aspect – but I rather like your terms “self centered” versus “God centered.”

The operative point is indeed “self.” One side’s understanding is cast from the physical aspect of an observer. The other side’s understanding removes self from the observation.

Both sides may have the best intentions – seeking to love God absolutely and as a distant second, seeking to love all neighbors unconditionally. (Matt 22)

Nevertheless the two aspects are opposite at the root because they see different things due to this "centering."

The sufficiency of the blood of Christ is the most important example, as you have suggested here. The self centered side would say the blood of Christ is not enough, that man has a part. The God centered side would say the blood of Christ is altogether sufficient, man is immaterial.

Here are some other examples of the differences which result from "centering" - IMHO, of course:

The visible church versus the invisible church

Succession from the apostles by physically laying on hands followed by the indwelling Spirit versus succession by the Spirit’s indwelling regardless of which hands if any were laid.

The good a man does in this life versus the good that God does through a man in this life.

Those who submitted to God’s will (Mary, Peter, Saints, etc.) versus that God accomplished His will using men of His choosing.

That accoutrements help in worship (attire, location, visual and physical aids such as rosaries, art, etc.) versus that accoutrements misdirect worship away from God and to the accoutrements themselves.

The gathering of the Scripture (councils, etc.) versus the Scriptures themselves.

Peter is the rock versus God is the Rock

Trust religious authorities versus trust God

Transubstantiation versus Who is being remembered

Sacraments versus grace

and so on…

That said, I do not see the difference as a Spiritual “poison pill” because, when I look at the apostles themselves some were self oriented and some were God oriented – they covered the gambit, so to speak.

Again my disclaimer – I personally eschew all the doctrines and traditions of men across the board, so I’m not speaking here for or against any of them.

Nevertheless, the leading I have in the Spirit is emphatically God-centered and thus my mantra (to which both sides would surely agree:)

To God be the glory!!!

As usual, you do not understand much about Catholicism/Orthodoxy. It has been said here countless times that we ALONE can do nothing without God. But when recreated and transformed, indwelled with God's Spirit, we CAN do good in Christ. Thus, we don't do anything good ALONE. There is a higher principle acting within us that moves our will and desire.

Unfortunately, you are not interested in hearing that, but prefer your strawman Catholic/Orthodox. It is easier to beat up.

Regards