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To: Forest Keeper
That simply is NOT what the verses say:

Eph 1:13-14 : 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.

How does that prove your point? I still read the above verse as written to the plural "you", the COMMUNITY, not to Fred Smith, Ephesian bartender and budding Calvinist... Paul was not writing to an individual, except in the case of Philemon and perhaps the Pastorals.

Regards

9,048 posted on 10/14/2007 6:27:43 PM PDT by jo kus
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To: jo kus; blue-duncan; MarkBsnr
How does that prove your point? I still read the above verse [Eph 1:13-14] as written to the plural "you", the COMMUNITY, not to Fred Smith, Ephesian bartender and budding Calvinist... Paul was not writing to an individual, except in the case of Philemon and perhaps the Pastorals.

What? He was directing his statement to Ephesian believers specifically, and all people throughout history to whom the description applied generally, i.e. to those who heard the word of truth and believed. For all of them, Paul says they WERE sealed forever by the Holy Spirit with a guarantee of salvation. By this reading, the statement actually MEANS something. :) By your reading, as far as I can decipher it, Paul was talking to no one and had nothing of value to say (to whomever). What is a general community supposed to do with this information? What possible value could Paul's saying here have to a community if no one could know if he was part of the subject of the saying? It just makes no sense. There are no "if-then" clauses in these passages. It's all past and present tense, including a guarantee.

9,056 posted on 10/14/2007 9:27:01 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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