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To: jo kus; blue-duncan; MarkBsnr
How does that prove your point? I still read the above verse [Eph 1:13-14] as written to the plural "you", the COMMUNITY, not to Fred Smith, Ephesian bartender and budding Calvinist... Paul was not writing to an individual, except in the case of Philemon and perhaps the Pastorals.

What? He was directing his statement to Ephesian believers specifically, and all people throughout history to whom the description applied generally, i.e. to those who heard the word of truth and believed. For all of them, Paul says they WERE sealed forever by the Holy Spirit with a guarantee of salvation. By this reading, the statement actually MEANS something. :) By your reading, as far as I can decipher it, Paul was talking to no one and had nothing of value to say (to whomever). What is a general community supposed to do with this information? What possible value could Paul's saying here have to a community if no one could know if he was part of the subject of the saying? It just makes no sense. There are no "if-then" clauses in these passages. It's all past and present tense, including a guarantee.

9,056 posted on 10/14/2007 9:27:01 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper
He was directing his statement to Ephesian believers specifically, and all people throughout history to whom the description applied generally, i.e. to those who heard the word of truth and believed.

Was Paul writing to one person specifically or not? As to the second sentence, that is based on faith that you are within the community that continues to this day. I take it you are not an Ephesian of 60 AD? As such, we presume that Paul was writing to the entire Body, in space and time. But that is a presumption.

For all of them, Paul says they WERE sealed forever by the Holy Spirit with a guarantee of salvation.

Being sealed doesn't mean one is "guaranteed salvation". All it means is that you have been granted an inheritance, one which you can lose, since you have not fully received it yet. We have only received the first fruits now, with the forgiveness of sin and the transformation that is SUPPOSED to take place in our lives. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but transformation can stop or can be all together eliminated later in life. Isn't that clear enough?

By your reading, as far as I can decipher it, Paul was talking to no one and had nothing of value to say (to whomever).

You can drop the drama. You know it means something to me. It means something to the COMMUNITY, not to "jo kus" personally, SEPARATE from the community, no matter what I do or how I am attached or abide in this Body (community). Nowhere in Ephesians does Paul call an individual person "saved". His references are always to the community as a whole, the Body that will be presented PURE and UNDEFILED. We are not going to be presented individually, but as part of the Body. We form one "person", the Bride of Christ.

What is a general community supposed to do with this information?

The general community? Continue with the traditions given, BOTH oral and written, for starters...

It's all past and present tense, including a guarantee.

God is not presenting an unconditional guarantee. If you sin and do not repent, for example, the blood of Christ NO LONGER is applied to you (see Heb 10:26-27). Think about that for a minute, FK. NO LONGER. That means it "once was", but is not anymore! In other words, it can be taken away. Not that one "never received it", but you LOSE IT.

Only those who abide in Christ will receive the "guarantee" at the end. That is why we are told to persevere.

Regards

9,067 posted on 10/15/2007 5:33:06 AM PDT by jo kus
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